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I've seen at least one M14 N.M. that had N.M. peep sights shoot eight to eight and one half inch groups at 1000 yards using L.C. N.M. ammo. The whole idea kinda violates the 7.5" groups the Palma guys claim at 1000 yards. I didn't see just one target, but eight or ten targets. What's the one thing you pick out in this concept? Short medium weight barrel! This leads to a very stable barrel mount (never removed an M14 barrel, so cannot really go much deeper). Now back to the M14 a second or two. The same group of guys using Sierra bullets and brass I prepped for them, and sized with Forster .308 National Match dies and their seater shot groups that were about 5" wide and about 7.5" tall. Not bad for an M14 if you ask me. This team won the Army Reserve meets everywhere they went that year, and I'm certain that the shooters were a big part of it (be back in the mid 1990's as Ralph's been dead for about twelve years now). The barrels they used were milspec national match. I doubt much if anything had been done to the action, and the trigger pull was rather stiff.
Ralph was the Sargent Major at a military installation just south of me, and we worked together. He saw me one day working on a gauge to check neck wall runout, and asked me a zillion questions. Next day he brings in this great big target, and unrolls it to show me a group that was around nine inches (more or less). I said we need to figure out what's wrong! (I figured it was a six hundred yard target) He said it was shot on the 1000 yard range from a prone position! I made him a gauge that by today's standards would be considered rather crude, and showed him how to use it to check the Lake City ammo that was required. He comes in a week or two later with several targets that were smaller than the groups I first saw (hell I can't see a thousand yards!). A couple months later he had me make a list of reloading stuff to buy. But they had to use the Lake City stuff in the matches per rules. Kinda violates all the 30" barrel rules in my book!
gary
Of course not. The design of their stocks and sights prohibits it from a usability point of view along with how they're adjusted for wind, held on target and fired. To say nothing of the accuracy-disturbing things that take place while the bullet's going down the barrel of each type of rifle. Once one understands this, they'll understand why, in competition, one shoots 1/2 MOA or better groups and the other shoots 2-1/2 MOA groups.I can't really challenge that statement because I'm not aware that anyone enters and wins benchrest competitions with a "whippy Palma" barrel. Nor do they enter and win Palma contests with a short, stiff benchrest rifle.
This is just more credit to the 'smiths working at military shops match conditioning M14's and M1's chambered for the 7.62 NATO round. The Army, Marine Corps, Navy and Air Force rifle teams usually tested their rifles for accuracy in machine rests, or "accuracy cradles" as they were known in military circles. With a good lot of match ammo, they would shoot inside 4 inches all day long at 600 yards. So shooting under eight or so inches at 1000 is plausible. These rifles have medium length whippy barrels.I've seen at least one M14 N.M. that had N.M. peep sights shoot eight to eight and one half inch groups at 1000 yards using L.C. N.M. ammo. The whole idea kinda violates the 7.5" groups the Palma guys claim at 1000 yards.
Of course not. The design of their stocks and sights prohibits it from a usability point of view along with how they're adjusted for wind, held on target and fired. To say nothing of the accuracy-disturbing things that take place while the bullet's going down the barrel of each type of rifle. Once one understands this, they'll understand why, in competition, one shoots 1/2 MOA or better groups and the other shoots 2-1/2 MOA groups.
As far as their inheirant accuracy's concerned, they're both equal. Not too many shooters understand this. It's pretty easy to figure out if you know what it takes to shoot good in either discipline. Especially when one's got to have a 3.5 pound trigger and the other can have a 3.5 ounce one. One gets to use scopes, the other's limited to aperture sights.
Oh, one other thing. I don't say that in every post. Usually limited to those claiming short, stiff barrels are the only road to smallest groups. I wish I had saved that picture in Handloader Magazine back in 1991 when it showed a 20-shot group from a Palma rifle that was 2.7 inches. That was fired with new cases, metered charges with 2/10ths grain spread and 3/1000ths bullet runout in a long, skinny, whippy 30-inch barrel in a pre-64 Mod. 70 action....range was 600 yards. I don't know of any, short, stiff barreled benchrest rifle's done that well for 20 conseciutive shots.
Even when the NBRSA 600 yard 6 group agg record is 2.75" for 30 shots? All six of those 5-shot groups as a composite was well over 3 inches; 2.75 inches is just the average size of all of them. He's got a 2/3 MOA rifle and ammo at 600 yards that probably shoots close to 1/6th MOA once in a great while at 600. Which means the average groups' size will be somewhere between 2 and 3 inches.To reference a 20 shot group from 1991 is a weak argument.
Even when the NBRSA 600 yard 6 group agg record is 2.75" for 30 shots? All six of those 5-shot groups as a composite was well over 3 inches; 2.75 inches is just the average size of all of them.
Of course not. The design of their stocks and sights prohibits it from a usability point of view along with how they're adjusted for wind, held on target and fired. To say nothing of the accuracy-disturbing things that take place while the bullet's going down the barrel of each type of rifle. Once one understands this, they'll understand why, in competition, one shoots 1/2 MOA or better groups and the other shoots 2-1/2 MOA groups.
As far as their inheirant accuracy's concerned, they're both equal. Not too many shooters understand this. It's pretty easy to figure out if you know what it takes to shoot good in either discipline. Especially when one's got to have a 3.5 pound trigger and the other can have a 3.5 ounce one. One gets to use scopes, the other's limited to aperture sights.
Oh, one other thing. I don't say that in every post. Usually limited to those claiming short, stiff barrels are the only road to smallest groups. I wish I had saved that picture in Handloader Magazine back in 1991 when it showed a 20-shot group from a Palma rifle that was 2.7 inches. That was fired with new cases, metered charges with 2/10ths grain spread and 3/1000ths bullet runout in a long, skinny, whippy 30-inch barrel in a pre-64 Mod. 70 action....range was 600 yards. I don't know of any, short, stiff barreled benchrest rifle's done that well for 20 conseciutive shots.
A .36 MOA group at 600 yards will win quite a bit in benchrest.Now a .36" group won't win many benchrest shoots these days; as you already know. A very low twos might on a bad day. But the one thing those guys do well is the art of being very consistent. I lack that even on a good day
A .36 MOA group at 600 yards will win quite a bit in benchrest.
