Savage action accurate ?

[Trickymissfit]

I would have to agree with Shortgrass on this one, in fact I have never seen a bench rest
rifle with a barrel nut or a long range target/match rifle ether.

The barrel nut is there to allow an operator to assemble and head space the rifle without
the necessity of a gunsmith NOT TO INHANCE ACCURACY. I have worked on lots of Savages
and they all have these short cuts to improve the ease of assembly by a non skilled worker.
The fact that they will shoot as well as they do is a tribute to there barrel quality.

It is a great rifle for the price and in most cases they shoot well, and I'm all about getting
a hunter/shooter into as good a rifle as they can afford.

I hope I haven't offended any of the savage guys because It is just my opinion and we are all
entitled to our opinions. That's what makes this a great site, you can read many different
opinions and decide for your self.

J E CUSTOM

the gist of the question was accuracey for sure, but nobody has ever proved that a barrel nut is not at least as accurate except in the factory class benchrest shoots. They are now called "the Savage Line." If you goto an F Class meet you will see lots and lots of barrel nuts, and they win on a regular basis. But there is another way to do a barrel nut that will make it even stiffer yet. The problem with the shoulder lockup is that there is no way to support the internal thread after the shoulder seats. No matter what you do the thread is gonna have .003" or more flex in it when you spike it with 60K PSI, and add a rigid bolt face that cannot stay square with the chamber centerline. Works OK, but could be a lot better.
gary

 

[J E Custom]

the gist of the question was accuracey for sure, but nobody has ever proved that a barrel nut is not at least as accurate except in the factory class benchrest shoots. They are now called "the Savage Line." If you goto an F Class meet you will see lots and lots of barrel nuts, and they win on a regular basis. But there is another way to do a barrel nut that will make it even stiffer yet. The problem with the shoulder lockup is that there is no way to support the internal thread after the shoulder seats. No matter what you do the thread is gonna have .003" or more flex in it when you spike it with 60K PSI, and add a rigid bolt face that cannot stay square with the chamber centerline. Works OK, but could be a lot better.
gary

Apparently you have been offended by my post and I am truly sorry, but the fact remains that
every Savage I have worked on has Improved dramatically, Whether it was the shoulder make
up or just the care of truing every part possible.

I am retired and have no ax to grind with Savage,and only build a few rifles a year because I
enjoy doing it.In fact Savage is one of the favorites to work on because it can be improved and the
owners are allways very happy. Some of these rifles are known shooters and the owners just
want them to shoot better. The last one was a consistant 1/4 MOA rifle and is now a 1/10 MOA.

I don't know how to measure how much flex a barrel or the connection has (You stated something
like .003) but I do know how to make it consistant and as solid as possible and the proof is in the
accuracy and the consistency.

The only brand that I have not figured out 100% of the time is the Ruger with the angled recoil
lug. Some have and I bare no malice against them just because I can't make them perform to my
standards every time,But I just don't feel comfortable guarantying 1/2 MOA on them. But I do on
the Savages.

Depending on the barrel length and weight I will add bedding up to 1" in front of the recoil lug
for More support and with the barrel nut you cant bed this area and all of the support that you
are supposed to get from it limited by the threaded length the rest is a sleeve to cover the
threads and offers no support.

So I will continue doing what I do until such time I find a better way to improve accuracy. It
is a judgement call and If I am accountable for the accuracy of my work I do not use the barrel
nut and if a person wants me to leave the barrel nut I will, I just won't guarantee accuracy of
1/2 MOA or less.

I hope this explains the reason I recommend doing away with the barrel nut and what I base
my opinion on. Real world experience

Again :Sorry if my opinion differs with yours. Nothing personal.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Coyboy]

The quality of the tube has more to do with it than the way it is fit via nut or nutless. I personally feel the nutless fitting is the "best" way of fitting a barrel, cosmetically and for rigidity.

Although my nutted remington prototype has yet to be shot It will be soon.
http://www.centershotrifles.com/gallery/img_rifle/Proto-type_700_243match_CSR_LRB.jpg
Not your normal nut system, this particullar barrel has no threads and the nut goes over the outside of the reciever.

John Dunbar set a new range record at eau-claire with a 200 15x a couple of weeks ago in 600 f-class. The 7saum is fitted with-out a nut and a 30" barrel.

So with all the savages w/nuts in f-class, this particular rifle beat them all in past history shot at that range. Including all the custom actions. But that might have somthing to do with this particular shooter, as he is very good.


a few less the nut;

http://www.centershotrifles.com/gallery/img/TruedSavageBrux260remmatchHSstockduracoatCSR.jpg

http://www.centershotrifles.com/gallery/img_rifle/7saum_Brux_Cooper_Savage_Muscle.jpg

This one is said to be the most accurate rifle the customer owns, and he owns 4 custom BR rigs.

http://www.centershotrifles.com/gallery/img/6mmBR_Savage_P1010003.jpg

this one has a one shot kill on a lope at over 900 yards.

http://www.centershotrifles.com/gallery/img_rifle/7rem_saum_pistol_Brux_Muscle.jpg


this one is missing the recoil lug;

http://www.centershotrifles.com/gallery/img_rifle/Savage_BC_6mm_8T_Broughton.jpg

 

[sinarms]

I am a big believer in the nut, I have nutted remingtons, winchesters, a CZ, and I am working on a Howa. Why? why not? I like a challenge and my customers like the option of just calling me up and ordering a replacement barrel for what ever they may shoot. Here are a few pics of the CZ I recently did.

 

[Trickymissfit]

Apparently you have been offended by my post and I am truly sorry, but the fact remains that
every Savage I have worked on has Improved dramatically, Whether it was the shoulder make
up or just the care of truing every part possible.

I am retired and have no ax to grind with Savage,and only build a few rifles a year because I
enjoy doing it.In fact Savage is one of the favorites to work on because it can be improved and the
owners are allways very happy. Some of these rifles are known shooters and the owners just
want them to shoot better. The last one was a consistant 1/4 MOA rifle and is now a 1/10 MOA.

I don't know how to measure how much flex a barrel or the connection has (You stated something
like .003) but I do know how to make it consistant and as solid as possible and the proof is in the
accuracy and the consistency.

The only brand that I have not figured out 100% of the time is the Ruger with the angled recoil
lug. Some have and I bare no malice against them just because I can't make them perform to my
standards every time,But I just don't feel comfortable guarantying 1/2 MOA on them. But I do on
the Savages.

Depending on the barrel length and weight I will add bedding up to 1" in front of the recoil lug
for More support and with the barrel nut you cant bed this area and all of the support that you
are supposed to get from it limited by the threaded length the rest is a sleeve to cover the
threads and offers no support.

So I will continue doing what I do until such time I find a better way to improve accuracy. It
is a judgement call and If I am accountable for the accuracy of my work I do not use the barrel
nut and if a person wants me to leave the barrel nut I will, I just won't guarantee accuracy of
1/2 MOA or less.

I hope this explains the reason I recommend doing away with the barrel nut and what I base
my opinion on. Real world experience

Again :Sorry if my opinion differs with yours. Nothing personal.

J E CUSTOM

you have never offended me! I actually enjoy your input more than most folks that post here. Some of your ideas are very good, and of course some I think differently. That's what makes it so interesting. There's been exactly one post ever on this board that rumpled my feathers, and now I just grin!

A few years back a bunch of friends and I ran some tests on barrel flex due to an email I recieved from Dan Lilja. Mostly I just didn't believe what he had to say all the way, but as usual Dan was spot on. I made a block out of 8620 steel that had three threads cut in it. 1.06-16, 1.06-18, and 1.06-20. I then drilled and taped two #10-32 holes on one side of each thread, and cut a slot to also allow me to be able to clamp the thread form in place later. Then I took two pieces of steel and turned threads to match the threads in the block for the best fit I could achive. Each bar was about 16" long, and started out as 1.25" in diameter. With the shoulder seater and the block clamped down on a surface plate, I was still able to flex it slightly by had. I then turned the OD down about three inches, and made a nut. It had about 40 in. lb. of torque on it. There was less flex (less than one half for sure). There was no difference between the 1.06-18 thread and the 16 thread that I could see. The third piece of steel was a cut off savage barrel that was junk. With the factory nut torqued to 40 in. lb. I got the same results as the other with a nut. The flex was greatly reduced to about 25% of what it was before when I clamped the block around the thread, but the difference was much less noticable with the savage barrel.

All this got me to thinking, and the boss and I got the folks upstairs to give us a mechanical CAD program (my boss was an avid target shooter). In my spare time I built a couple generic actions that were similar but for the barrel thread setup. Boy did I learn how far out in left field we really were! I then started playing with different chamber pressure spikes, and the program showed me what was happening in micro seconds. Kinda scarey. I then built an action that had a 1.25-24 thread with a bridge diameter of 1.75" on the PC. Same results exactly. But with the stretched thread the nut was still leaving the shoulder, but with a fraction of the amount. (all threads were setup with about .004" total clearence which is very tight). But even after leaving the shoulder the barrel thread stayed in place due to a constant contact with the female thread form. With zero rotational torque the shoulder setup flexed far less, but with a small rotation added the barrel thread tried to rotate just like the bullet does. The one with near zero clearence flexed a lot less. Then I kicked up the pressure spike to real world pressures (65K), and I could see the bridge moving as well as everything else (note: the bridge was spec'd as 4350 pretreat steel with a 28-32rc). This when I learned that the barrel was actually twisting as the bullet was pushed thru it, and then sorta unwound behind it (bolt tried to to the same thing by the way). So I build another action setup with 1.25" of female thread, but with a counter bore in it that's 1.062" x .25" deep to help keep everything strait. Big difference with the shoulder lock up! The thread form was still flexing, but the barrel was not moving all over the place nearly as much up and down. This worked so well that at two guys I know built actions off that idea. I know it's long. but that's how I came up with my ideas.

I have seen quite a few Savages shoot in the mid threes right out of the box. I don't figure it's the barrel nut, but a better quality barrel. I have had one that would dip into the 3/16" area on a rare occassion, and was always good for high twos and low three's. Yet I've never seen a Savage shoot better with a barrel seated off the shoulder, but I have seen more than one Remington shoot better with a barrel nut. I know this is unscientific because the barrels were not the same in either case.

As for the recoil lug: I said it once before that I was doing the wedge setup almost fifteen years ago. I'm kinda convinced that the recoil lug that Savage and Remington use is the weak link, but on the otherhand I do not have a better idea without a completely new action.
gary

 

[rscott5028]

As for the OP....

How does the rifle shoot now?

Do you aready hand load?

Do you have a place to practice 1000+?

If it already shoots sub-moa with high BC bullets, then you're all set to go have some fun.

If you want to go win competitions, then you may need to throw down some cash to get in the running.

-- richard

 

[J E Custom]

Gary.

Sorry I misread your post and I am happy to have not offended you . I enjoy your post as
well and have learned from them.

I am not very good at expressing my self sometimes and it may sound like It is pointed
at someone but It is not.

I try to post How I feel about a subject based on my experiences and assume that everyone
knows that it is an opinion. In this world there are very few absolutes and the only rule is -
"There is no rule".

I to have not been offended very many Times on this sight and find for the most part It is
a very friendly site. Plus I enjoy hearing different points of views especially from the guys
outside the USA because they have to play by a different set of rules. (We are very lucky).

I am not bashful about my opinion and others should not be as long as it doesent get personal.

Thanks again.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Trickymissfit]

Gary.

Sorry I misread your post and I am happy to have not offended you . I enjoy your post as
well and have learned from them.

I am not very good at expressing my self sometimes and it may sound like It is pointed
at someone but It is not.

I try to post How I feel about a subject based on my experiences and assume that everyone
knows that it is an opinion. In this world there are very few absolutes and the only rule is -
"There is no rule".

I to have not been offended very many Times on this sight and find for the most part It is
a very friendly site. Plus I enjoy hearing different points of views especially from the guys
outside the USA because they have to play by a different set of rules. (We are very lucky).

I am not bashful about my opinion and others should not be as long as it doesent get personal.

Thanks again.

J E CUSTOM

years back I had a boss who was an avid paper puncher, and the two of us worked together on several projects. In doing this I had access to a lot of fancey equipment to see where I was going, and of course do it. Then I got involved in the 22 rimfire benchrest stuff, and that's when I knew that I knew very little! These guys are a complete generation ahead of the centerfire boys, and yet are a great bunch to be around.

The equipment I had at my disposal was similar to Chad's. (another fellow I really do enjoy around here). I was lucky in that I had six wire edms and two sinkers at my disposal (we rarely ran more than three of them at a time), so I did do a lot of experiments. Some were complete failures, and some turned out very well. Always had a pair of Bridgeports and two or three machine centers to use about anytime I wanted to. Boss liked it because I kept his machinery running, and he in turn let me do things. People that are not afraid to experiment are people that go places (my two favorite examples are Bill Calfee and Ferris Pendel).
gary

 

[isu600rr]

Wow guys I'm very new to all of this and you have gone straight over my head, but then i am still able to pick some things up. To me it sounds like both Nutted and Un-nutted have there advantages and that neither have been proven to be better than the other. Now dont get me wrong this is what i think i have pick up. but as to the original question, yes it would be beneficial if i were to get my action trued.

 

[Trickymissfit]

Wow guys I'm very new to all of this and you have gone straight over my head, but then i am still able to pick some things up. To me it sounds like both Nutted and Un-nutted have there advantages and that neither have been proven to be better than the other. Now dont get me wrong this is what i think i have pick up. but as to the original question, yes it would be beneficial if i were to get my action trued.

I'm kinda like this in the argument. "if it works for you then so be it." Somebody proved a long time ago that the typical thread inside the reciever bridge was too short for a 1.06" thread diameter, and this has been confirmed many times over. Then in our time we've mostly gotten on the 26" thru 30" barrel length agenda. But in doing so we've lost the rigidity of the barrel and consistencey. Still even worse yet is the leverage factor that the long tube has on the barrel thread and shoulder contact points. We probably need about 1.38" of thread with a shoulder (or nut) diameter of about the same diameter.

If you have a reciently machined Savage action, you'll probably find that the action is very square and strait. That dosn't make it perfect, but at least your out front. There's also the trigger mounting area and the cocking device (cannot think of the right word this morning). The next real problem is that you cannot turn a barrel thread for that so called perfect contact with the internal thread. Be nice, but you'll destroy the thread the first time you install it. Yes you could lap the male and female together, but as I said you may never get it back apart.
gary

 

[rscott5028]

I suppose you could factor in that rifles, barrel making, metallic cartridges, reloading, etc... are inherently imperfect. Hence, the need for tolerances and materials such as copper, lead, and brass that adapt.

It all makes for lots of variables and excellent competition whether it's you against nature or against other builders, spotters, shooters...

 

[Bart B]

Secondly the 3/4" or so of barrel threads is not nearly enough to support the leverage of a heavy barrel that is 26" or more in length (Applied Mechanics 101).

I and others think 3/4ths inch is plenty, at least in Win. 70 receivers. Otherwise all those high power match rifles shooting belted magnum cartridges in 28 to 30 inch heavy bull barrels wouldn't have got the 3/4ths MOA or better accuracy at 1000 yards for the life of the barrel. And the receiver's stood up enough to wear out a dozen or more such barrels. Such actions and their heavy barrels have shot test groups smaller than benchrest records. If 3/4 inch wasn't enough, the success they've had would not have happened.

What do you think happens in the barrel tenon thread area when a 30-inch long 30 caliber barrel tapering from 1.25 inch at the receiver end down to 0.90 inch at the muzzle gets the effect of gravity pulling down on it? The only thing I've seen happen is it droops more at the muzzle axis from weight than a short, skinny 22 inch featherweight sporter barrel does.

This is the correct application of Applied Mechanics 101 else it wouldn't be the way it is.

Bench rest shooters like to use barrels in the 21" to 22" range because they are far more rigid (70% don't know this), and to make weight.

Barrel stiffness has little, if anything, to do with accuracy (95% don't know this). As long as the barrel whips the same for each shot, its rigidity doesn't matter. Accuracy is repeatability. If this weren't so, then why do 30 inch skinny, lightweight and whippy Palma rifle barrels shoot just as accurate as short, stiff benchrest ones do? To say nothing of those standard weight M1 and M14 match grade service rifle barrels that would hold under 4 inches all day long at 600 yards.

 

[rscott5028]

[...]If this weren't so, then why do 30 inch skinny, lightweight and whippy Palma rifle barrels shoot just as accurate as short, stiff benchrest ones do? [...]

Bart B -

You say this in every one of your posts. I can't really challenge that statement because I'm not aware that anyone enters and wins benchrest competitions with a "whippy Palma" barrel. Nor do they enter and win Palma contests with a short, stiff benchrest rifle.

But since you seem to know what others have yet to figure out, then it seems like a perfect opportunity for you to spank the benchrest crowd.

-- richard

 

[Trickymissfit]

Bart B -

You say this in every one of your posts. I can't really challenge that statement because I'm not aware that anyone enters and wins benchrest competitions with a "whippy Palma" barrel. Nor do they enter and win Palma contests with a short, stiff benchrest rifle.

But since you seem to know what others have yet to figure out, then it seems like a perfect opportunity for you to spank the benchrest crowd.

-- richard

I've seen at least one M14 N.M. that had N.M. peep sights shoot eight to eight and one half inch groups at 1000 yards using L.C. N.M. ammo. The whole idea kinda violates the 7.5" groups the Palma guys claim at 1000 yards. I didn't see just one target, but eight or ten targets. What's the one thing you pick out in this concept? Short medium weight barrel! This leads to a very stable barrel mount (never removed an M14 barrel, so cannot really go much deeper). Now back to the M14 a second or two. The same group of guys using Sierra bullets and brass I prepped for them, and sized with Forster .308 National Match dies and their seater shot groups that were about 5" wide and about 7.5" tall. Not bad for an M14 if you ask me. This team won the Army Reserve meets everywhere they went that year, and I'm certain that the shooters were a big part of it (be back in the mid 1990's as Ralph's been dead for about twelve years now). The barrels they used were milspec national match. I doubt much if anything had been done to the action, and the trigger pull was rather stiff.

Ralph was the Sargent Major at a military installation just south of me, and we worked together. He saw me one day working on a gauge to check neck wall runout, and asked me a zillion questions. Next day he brings in this great big target, and unrolls it to show me a group that was around nine inches (more or less). I said we need to figure out what's wrong! (I figured it was a six hundred yard target) He said it was shot on the 1000 yard range from a prone position! I made him a gauge that by today's standards would be considered rather crude, and showed him how to use it to check the Lake City ammo that was required. He comes in a week or two later with several targets that were smaller than the groups I first saw (hell I can't see a thousand yards!). A couple months later he had me make a list of reloading stuff to buy. But they had to use the Lake City stuff in the matches per rules. Kinda violates all the 30" barrel rules in my book!
gary