Rifle build underway

[Flatbow]

Something to keep in mind or at least check into is the sometimes mediocre or inconsistent performance of the 195 gr on big game. As in bad terminal performance.
I Load for two of my buddy's custom 28 N. With the 195's and they are considering going back to the 180 do to it in our experience having better and more consistent performance on animals.
It seems I have heard others on here talk about that before as well. You might want to do a search on it.
That being said my load for both those guns with Stiller actions and 24" proof barrels is with rl33 and 195 berger is 3050 fps.
I am still shooting the 180's out of my 7mm RUM at 3100.
For bullet performance on animals I would take my stock SAKO 75 shooting the 180's over their customs with the 195.
I just wish my RUM was a light wt. As their customs.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Something to keep in mind or at least check into is the sometimes mediocre or inconsistent performance of the 195 gr on big game. As in bad terminal performance.
I Load for two of my buddy's custom 28 N. With the 195's and they are considering going back to the 180 do to it in our experience having better and more consistent performance on animals.
It seems I have heard others on here talk about that before as well. You might want to do a search on it.
That being said my load for both those guns with Stiller actions and 24" proof barrels is with rl33 and 195 berger is 3050 fps.
I am still shooting the 180's out of my 7mm RUM at 3100.
For bullet performance on animals I would take my stock SAKO 75 shooting the 180's over their customs with the 195.
I just wish my RUM was a light wt. As their customs.

This all day. 180 Hybrids are a better killing bullet in my experience.

 

[Rflshootr]

So how much free bore does that reamer have?

 

[Tommy T]

I've got a rifle build underway. I posted about scope help the other day. Hopefully it will be done by the end of January. It's going to be:

28 nosler

-24" proof barrel
-Ag composites alpine hunter
-Trigger tech trigger
-Kauger elite hunter action
-Schmidt and bender pmii 5-25x56 scope, will probably have to use a rail to help mount.
-Being throated for 180 bergers

Should I do VLD or hybrids?

I'm hoping to achieve 3100-3150 MV with this load. Any other bullet recommendations?

I shoot 195 elite hunters and 180 vlds in my 28 nisler with 23" hells Catlin battle the 195s are running 2956 FPS. The 180s. 3068, FPS I'm using N570 in 195 and N 560 in the 180s you will love that 28 and good luck

 

[lancetkenyon]

My custom 28 Nos is running a 26" 1:8", and throated for 195s.
Slow powders shine. N570, RL33, IMR8133. I am running IMR8133 because when I built my load, RL33 and N570 had been unavailable for over a year. Of course, now IMR8133 is discontinued, but I have 8lbs, and as little as I shoot it, that will last me until I rebarrel.
195s @ 3099 with a load 1.6gr off max.

 

[Buzzsaw]

If I were throating for the 180gr, I would choose using the Hybrid bullet. The VLD can be a little picky on seating depth.
The Hybrid is much more forgiving.

I agree with this statement. Mine was a 6mm Creedmoor, but it absolutely loved the 105 Hybrid Targets. You might also consider the availability of each bullet

 

[txgunner00]

I'd run some ballistics at reasonable velocities and see how much you'd gain/lose between both bullets at the distance you'll be shooting/hunting, both in windage, elevation and velocity. In other words, don't be concerned with the ballistics at a mile out if your max distance is 600 yards. I think you'll find that there will be little difference in a reasonable scenario.
In addition, if you have brass and bullets, seat one of each so the bottom of the bearing surface of the bullet, is at the neck/shoulder junction of the case. Then, compare the 2 base to ogive measurements to see the difference. That number will be very close to how much more you will have to seat the longer bullet in the case to get to the same point of touching the lands in the barrel. You might find it to be insignificant and only taking up a small amount of case volume.
At the same time, you can check your OAL to make sure they will fit the magazine.
So, what I am saying is, if it were me, and I didn't have the need or option to shoot very long distances, I would throat it for the 180's. Then if I decided to shoot something heavier for one reason or another, I would take the slightly less case volume and run with it.
It is much easier to cut the throat deeper in the future, then it is to set the barrel back to make the throat shorter.

Edit: I just ran a couple of numbers comparing base to ogive measurements of the 180 VLDH to the 195 Elite. The difference is .107. That alone could take you past magazine length. I sure would check all of the numbers before you make a final decision.
You haven't really said if this is a hunting rifle or mainly a target rifle. If it is a hunting rifle, I would definitely pick a hunting bullet. The only 180 that Berger has for hunting, is the VLD.
3100-3150 with the heavy bullets, especially the 195, would be stretching it, depending on the powder you pick and what the rifle likes. I would also suggest you look at the load data from Hodgdon which is based off of a 24" barrel just like you are having built.
BTW, MidSouth has the 180VLDH on clearance sale right now. $55.43/box cheap.

Lot's of wisdom here. To often we get caught up in theoretical performance numbers that we loose sight of practical application. I'm guilty myself. It's fun to nerd out on numbers but we all need to pump the brakes sometimes. I'm building a rifle right now that's a result of one of these mental break checks. It's a ballance of all the physical properties I want it to have vs. what's "best" for ballistic performance.

 

[w6kennels]

Rflshootr asked a key question: What will the rifle be used for? If this is a rifle primarily intended for hunting, I assume it will be used out west for elk, and perhaps larger game, as well as for deer. I would say the vast majority of ethical hunters limit their shooting distance to 600 yds when hunting. Even Eric Cortina, the world champion F class 1000 yd. shooter, states he would never attempt to shoot an animal past 600 yds. Given that as a maximum, why would you want to use a bullet designed primarily for long distance target shooting, when you could get similar accuracy and potentially much better performance with a bullet designed to penetrate and expand at that distance? Most elk hunting in the west is performed in woods, or mixed open ground bordered by woods. Lets say you were shooting 600 yds, the Hornady 160gr CX with a G1 ballistic coefficient of .596, would have a terminal velocity of 2550 fps, when shot at a muzzle velocity of 3315 fps (which by the way was the velocity achieved in a 26in 28 Nosler rifle Little Crow Gunworks used in their series "7mm Showdown," comparing various 7mm rifles). Lets assume a velocity of 3150 for the 180 Berger VLD bullet, which has a Litz G7 BC of 0.337. The terminal velocity at 7500 ft. of elevation, would be approximatley 46 ft. slower than the Hornady CX, with 4.4 inches more drop than the CX (53.2 vs 48.8). The only advantage the Berger would have would be a wind deflection of 12.3 versus 13.6 for the CX (assuming a 10 mph crosswind). However, with the CX, you would be achieving far more penetration, and excellent expansion. If you did not have a perfect broadside shot, and decided to shoot with the animal quartering away from you, the added performance would be even more necessary. If you happen to shoot the animal a little back, your bullet will end up in the elk rumen, which is perhaps the best bullet trap ever designed, and the elk will likely be in the next zip code before you have a chance to walk over to where you think the animal might be. In any event, short of a spine or solar plexus shot, the elk will likely run a ways. A monometal bullet will likely penetrate and leave a blood trail; the Berger likely will not. At long distances you might be surprised how difficult it can be to find a down elk if it gets into the woods. All this to say, deciding on what you will do with the rifle, is the most important question when deciding on the bullet to be used.

 

[shedhunt]

I'm shooting 180 hybrids out of my custom 7rem mag and couldn't be happier with the accuracy and performance.

 

[coyotezapper]

Something to keep in mind or at least check into is the sometimes mediocre or inconsistent performance of the 195 gr on big game. As in bad terminal performance.
I Load for two of my buddy's custom 28 N. With the 195's and they are considering going back to the 180 do to it in our experience having better and more consistent performance on animals.
It seems I have heard others on here talk about that before as well. You might want to do a search on it.
That being said my load for both those guns with Stiller actions and 24" proof barrels is with rl33 and 195 berger is 3050 fps.
I am still shooting the 180's out of my 7mm RUM at 3100.
For bullet performance on animals I would take my stock SAKO 75 shooting the 180's over their customs with the 195.
I just wish my RUM was a light wt. As their customs.

This is a real thing with Bergers. The fix is easy, take a pin drill that matches the ID of your hollow point and clean it up. A pinched or plugged hollow point causes pencil entrance and exit holes.

 

[Flatbow]

This is a real thing with Bergers. The fix is easy, take a pin drill that matches the ID of your hollow point and clean it up. A pinched or plugged hollow point causes pencil entrance and exit holes.

Very good advice here and I do do this to all bergers that I load.
That being said we still get better bullet terminal performance from the 180g.
Heck my Son shoots a 270 WSM with 150 gr bergers and gets better performance than the 195.
Not sure what's going on but something just seams off with the 195gr.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Not sure what's going on but something just seams off with the 195gr.

I agree with this statement. I'm a huge Berger fan and I won't use the 195s. They're really unpredictable compared to the other Bergers I've used over the years.

 

[Flatbow]

Rflshootr asked a key question: What will the rifle be used for? If this is a rifle primarily intended for hunting, I assume it will be used out west for elk, and perhaps larger game, as well as for deer. I would say the vast majority of ethical hunters limit their shooting distance to 600 yds when hunting. Even Eric Cortina, the world champion F class 1000 yd. shooter, states he would never attempt to shoot an animal past 600 yds. Given that as a maximum, why would you want to use a bullet designed primarily for long distance target shooting, when you could get similar accuracy and potentially much better performance with a bullet designed to penetrate and expand at that distance? Most elk hunting in the west is performed in woods, or mixed open ground bordered by woods. Lets say you were shooting 600 yds, the Hornady 160gr CX with a G1 ballistic coefficient of .596, would have a terminal velocity of 2550 fps, when shot at a muzzle velocity of 3315 fps (which by the way was the velocity achieved in a 26in 28 Nosler rifle Little Crow Gunworks used in their series "7mm Showdown," comparing various 7mm rifles). Lets assume a velocity of 3150 for the 180 Berger VLD bullet, which has a Litz G7 BC of 0.337. The terminal velocity at 7500 ft. of elevation, would be approximatley 46 ft. slower than the Hornady CX, with 4.4 inches more drop than the CX (53.2 vs 48.8). The only advantage the Berger would have would be a wind deflection of 12.3 versus 13.6 for the CX (assuming a 10 mph crosswind). However, with the CX, you would be achieving far more penetration, and excellent expansion. If you did not have a perfect broadside shot, and decided to shoot with the animal quartering away from you, the added performance would be even more necessary. If you happen to shoot the animal a little back, your bullet will end up in the elk rumen, which is perhaps the best bullet trap ever designed, and the elk will likely be in the next zip code before you have a chance to walk over to where you think the animal might be. In any event, short of a spine or solar plexus shot, the elk will likely run a ways. A monometal bullet will likely penetrate and leave a blood trail; the Berger likely will not. At long distances you might be surprised how difficult it can be to find a down elk if it gets into the woods. All this to say, deciding on what you will do with the rifle, is the most important question when deciding on the bullet to be used.

This all depends on what side of terminal damage you buy in to.
A bullet that retains more wt. For better penitration and hopefully two holes for better blood trails OR a bullet that fragments much more in order to dump all or most of its energy into the animal for much more internal damage and more DRT hits requiring no or very little blood trail. Precisely what the berger is designed for.
At 600yrs or under (and farther) you will not have any penitration issues with the 180gr berger.

But that is a whole other topic that has been hashed out here before.

 

[Rflshootr]

I shoot 195 elite hunters and 180 vlds in my 28 nisler with 23" hells Catlin battle the 195s are running 2956 FPS. The 180s. 3068, FPS I'm using N570 in 195 and N 560 in the 180s you will love that 28 and good luck

This is the 2nd time in as many months that I have seen pics on here and commented about it...........with a closed bolt even. Enough said.

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