Proof research carbon or Barlein 5R Stainless ?

[JustMe2]

Bartlien arguably has the best reputation for accuracy and consistency in barrel making. And they can do pretty much anything you want in a barrel. The last two barrels I bought are Bartlien, 5R gain twist. The 5R rifling is easier on jackets and produces less friction, the gain twist starts heavier projectiles spinning easier as well as continually sealing better all the way to the muzzle. I also went with left hand rotation to help mitigate coriolis effect in the Northern hemisphere. Very few makers offer, or can do this kind of work. I didn't have these two fluted, as I was more concerned with rigidity, but fluting does reduce weight and will generally be just as rigid as the "same weight" non- fluted barrel. I do like the looks of fluted barrels, and gave many of them. There are lots of options you can take advantage of in a good custom barrel.

Dragon300 " I also went with left hand rotation to help mitigate coriolis effect in the Northern hemisphere. " What? You do know corriolis correction is dependent on the direction being shot (north, south, east, west). If you shoot facing south all the time, then your left twist might help.

 

[cjuve]

I have barrels made by Proof, Bartlein, Brux, Lija, Hart, Shilen and Broughton and the only brand that I have had issues with is Proof. All of the custom barrels that I own shoot very well but If I were to pick my favorite it would probably be Bartlein. For a hunting rifle I prefer to have carbon, a lot of the choice boils down to application.

 

[Elk Dreamer]

Thank you !

 

[Dragoon300]

Dragon300 " I also went with left hand rotation to help mitigate coriolis effect in the Northern hemisphere. " What? You do know corriolis correction is dependent on the direction being shot (north, south, east, west). If you shoot facing south all the time, then your left twist might help.

Here is an article that explains the impact of the coriolis effect on your long range shooting. It isn't much, but it is there, and causes you to miss to the right in the Northern hemisphere when shooting both North and South. I chose to go to lefthand twist rifling to use spin drift to work for me instead of against me. It isn't much, but it is something, and it is available if you ask for it at no additional charge. So, I ask, why not go to lefthand rotation?
Do your own research on the subject.

Hope this helps.

The Truth About Guns

Coriolis Effect for Beginners (Extreme Long Range Shooting Beginners)

Jeremy S.

4 years ago​

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Last week we posted an Ammoland article about maximum point blank range. The article touched on — but didn't explain — some topics related to long range shooting. Among them: the Coriolis effect . . .
As far as shooting is concerned, the Coriolis effect is the Earth's rotation causing the target to move away from the bullet as it travels. So you have to make adjustments, but do you compensate by aiming up, left, down, right of the target? Let's find out . . .
First, the results of Coriolis effect:
• If you're in the Northern Hemisphere shooting North or South, you'll hit right of your target.
• If you're in the Southern Hemisphere shooting North or South, you'll hit left of your target.
• If you're in either Hemisphere shooting East, you'll hit high.
• If you're shooting West, you'll hit low.
Shooting North or South:
Perhaps the hardest fact to wrap one's head around: when we're shooting in the U.S. of A. the Coriolis effect causes a miss to the right, whether we're shooting in a northerly or southerly direction.
Envision the following scenario, then we'll scale it up to long range shooting over the moving Earth . . .
You're in a car driving 60 mph down the highway. There's a stationary target 200 yards away in a field directly off the driver side of the car. If you shoot out of the car at the target [ED: don't shoot from cars], you'll miss to the right of the target. That's because your bullet was in your gun, in your car, going 60 mph in the car's direction when it was fired. It kept moving in that direction even as it simultaneously flew away from the car.
Likewise, if you stand at this target and you fire directly at the driver side of the moving car [ED: don't shoot at cars], you'll also miss to the right. Your shot will have gone straight, but the car kept moving and was no longer in that spot when the bullet arrived.

​

Conversely, if you're shooting at a target off the passenger side of the same car going the same direction, you'd miss to the left, whether you're shooting from car-to-target or from target-to-car.
In this metaphor, the car is the Earth's equator. It's moving East at 1,037 miles per hour. The Equator is the fastest-moving line of latitude on Earth because it's the largest in diameter and, therefore, farthest from the Earth's rotational axis.
For example, at 45 degrees North (halfway between the Equator and the North Pole, a.k.a. along Montana's southern border) you're only moving about 733 mph. If you're shooting at "the car" (the Equator), it's moving East faster than you are and you miss to the right. If you're "the car" and shooting at Montana, it's moving East slower than you are and you miss to the right.
Likewise, if you're shooting south of the Equator, whether South from "the car" or North up towards it, you miss left/left. FYI, in the off chance you're shooting across the Equator from one Hemisphere into the other at a target equidistant from the Equator as you, you'll be spot-on.
If the car thing doesn't make sense, another example — though it doesn't scale up to match what's truly going on in long range shooting on Earth — is that of a playground merry-go-round (roundabout).
You and a friend are on the merry-go-round and you're sitting across from each other on opposite sides, facing inwards. It's spinning fast, and you throw a ball across to your friend. What happens?
If the roundabout is spinning counter-clockwise, you'll miss to the right. So will your friend. It doesn't matter who's throwing the ball across, the ball will miss to the right of the target.
This is the same effect as shooting North or South if you're in the Northern hemisphere. If the roundabout is spinning clockwise, you'll both miss to the left. This is the same effect as shooting North or South if you're in the Southern hemisphere.
Shooting East or West:
If you're shooting East or West, regardless of hemisphere, Coriolis effect makes you miss high or low, as the earth is either effectively dropping below your bullet (shooting East) or coming up at it (shooting West).
The Earth is spinning to the East fast enough to complete one rotation every day (what a coincidence!). As mentioned, on the equator, that's 1,037 miles per hour and it's slower and slower as you approach the poles, until eventually you're at a pole and you aren't moving (discounting motion through space and time) at all, but just spinning in place (and you can only shoot either due South or due North).
Had you zeroed your rifle while shooting North or South, if you take a shot due East you'll hit high and due West you'll hit low. While most of us focus on the North/South effects of Coriolis causing a "windage" drift, the East/West effects on elevation are typically even greater.
How Much Does it Matter?
In most of these cases we're talking about some 2 to 6 inches at 1,000 yards depending on caliber and, particularly in the case of East/West shooting, latitude.
Examples with .308 Win shooting 168 grain Federal Gold Medal Match:
• North/South at 1,000 yards: about 3 inches right if in Northern Hemisphere, left if in Southern
• East/West at 1,000 yards while here in Austin: 4 inches high if shooting East, low if West (at the equator it would be 4.6 inches)
• North/South at 1,500 yards: 8.7 inches right if in Northern Hemisphere, left if in Southern
• East/West at 1,500 yards while here in Austin: 13.5 inches high if shooting East, low if West
Add spin drift — the bullet's drift off course due to the right- or left-hand rotation on it imparted by the rifling (a typical .308 bullet is spinning something like 188,000 rpm) — to the Coriolis effect and you're easily missing targets even in dead calm conditions.
For example, you're looking at 39.2 inches of spin drift at 1,500 yards with the .308 load above. In most rifles it's drift to the right, as most rifles have right-hand twist rifling. Add in Coriolis and you're now 47.9 inches right of target and you've just missed by a long shot.
The Math
Your ballistic app will take care of it, don't worry. But you'll want to know your latitude and your azimuth (the direction you're shooting, in degrees from true North). In many cases, the GPS in your phone can provide that information to your ballistic app. "You should end the Coriolis article with something funny." — Robert

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Categories: Guns for Beginners, Rifles, Training & Technique
Tags: coriolis, coriolis effect, Long Range Shooting

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The Truth About Guns

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[J.J. Weiland]

Bartl

Spoke with my GS (SPR) when contemplating whether I should go with a Proof Sendero or a Bartlein CF. He basically stated that he has seen outstanding consistency with Bartlein, but since I was wanting a light weight build, the Proof would offer weight advantage. He also mentioned the Proof is the most aesthetically pleasing CF barrel, for whatever that brings to the table. I went with the Proof. Either one will work depending on your priorities.

Bartlein makes a great product but there are many other great barrel company's out there including Proof. I have one and it will shoot with any of my other custom barrels.

 

[JustMe2]

This article and the analogy of firing from a moving car is wrong. You are shooting from a stationary position not a moving car, the target is what is moving not the shooter's barrel/position. That's a big difference. Shooting south, the earth rotates right-to-left moving the target left as your bullet flies across the ground. Shooting north the earth is moving the target left-to-right moving the target right. Your article is wrong because it has the shooter moving.

 

[Dragoon300]

This article and the analogy of firing from a moving car is wrong. You are shooting from a stationary position not a moving car, the target is what is moving not the shooter's barrel/position. That's a big difference. Shooting south, the earth rotates right-to-left moving the target left as your bullet flies across the ground. Shooting north the earth is moving the target left-to-right moving the target right. Your article is wrong because it has the shooter

Well, maybe you will like to read Bryan Litz's explanation of Coriolis effect in his book Applied Ballistics For Long-Range Shooting, 3rd edition. Here are photo copies of pages 113 - 118 it seems you are at issue with the guy that wrote the book.

 

[WildRose]

How Much Does it Matter?
In most of these cases we're talking about some 2 to 6 inches at 1,000 yards depending on caliber and, particularly in the case of East/West shooting, latitude.

I've seen a lot of people get nuts over coriolis but in reality the effect is pretty neglible out to 800yds.

If you've got plenty of time to set up a shot and you're a real perfectionist it's probably worth doing the calculation and correction but it's not enough to make you throw a bad shot at that distance on a coyote or larger sized animal.

If you memorize how it changes with direction you can also just do the estimation calculation and adjust for it with your hold on the fly.

Personally the only time I threw a bad shot failing to correct for corriolis was on a buck at about 1380, yds. I hit him a little high right at the top of the liver. He ran about another hundred and stopped and I quickly threw the anchor in by adjusting my hold on the fly because as soon as I pulled the trigger I realized I'd forgotten it.

Same result either way but sure makes for a much more messy field dressing job than necessary anytime you hit the liver because of the bile.

Just clean it out as fast as possible then, wash out the abdominal cavity with blood before working on up to the lungs and heart. Remove the diaphragm, get them, and use what blood is left for a second rinse.

Load it and get to town and hose it down good quickly and everything will be fine though.

 

[Dragoon300]

I've seen a lot of people get nuts over coriolis but in reality the effect is pretty neglible out to 800yds.

If you've got plenty of time to set up a shot and you're a real perfectionist it's probably worth doing the calculation and correction but it's not enough to make you throw a bad shot at that distance on a coyote or larger sized animal.

If you memorize how it changes with direction you can also just do the estimation calculation and adjust for it with your hold on the fly.

Personally the only time I threw a bad shot failing to correct for corriolis was on a buck at about 1380, yds. I hit him a little high right at the top of the liver. He ran about another hundred and stopped and I quickly threw the anchor in by adjusting my hold on the fly because as soon as I pulled the trigger I realized I'd forgotten it.

Same result either way but sure makes for a much more messy field dressing job than necessary anytime you hit the liver because of the bile.

Just clean it out as fast as possible then, wash out the abdominal cavity with blood before working on up to the lungs and heart. Remove the diaphragm, get them, and use what blood is left for a second rinse.

Load it and get to town and hose it down good quickly and everything will be fine though.

Thanks for the reply! And nice shooting!
I'm really not that concerned about Coriolis either, I just made the decision to go with lefthand twist to mitigate it with spin drift, like Litz said in his book, why not it's better to offset it with lefthand than compound it with righthand. With my LRF and Kestrel 5700X with AB Bluetoothed together I get azimuth and inclination along with the environmental data to obtain the firing solution with coriolis included, so I figure it doesn't hurt.

 

[JustMe2]

Dragon300, I did some research as you suggested, and I stand corrected. It has to do with the earth being a spinning parabola and not flat as I was envisioning it. So, indeed the bullet always appears to curve right in northern hemisphere and left in the southern. I say appears because the bullet is really traveling in a straight line (ignoring effects of spin drift, wind, etc.), Coriolis effect is actually the target moving at a different speed than the shooter's speed. Both target and shooter are moving with the earth (west to east), just at different speeds if shooting north or south. If shooting east/west, the target and shooter are moving at the same speed, so no Coriolis effect. Since earth spins faster at the equator than at the poles, as the bullet passes the latitudes it is either going faster or slower (movement left/right - not velocity) across the ground in relation to its initial origin (shooter) depending on north or south direction. This causes the bullet to always appear to drift right in northern hem and left in south hem. Example: bullet fired in FL towards AL. The earth spins faster in FL than in AL along a latitude line because of the cone shaped earth. So as the bullet travels north, it ends up going faster right relative to the ground target under it causing the bullet to appear to curve right or get ahead of the shooter. Aiming south (AL to FL), the bullet is initially going slower in AL than the target in FL causing drifting right again. There is no Coriolis effect shooting east/west because bullet is not crossing latitudes and changing the shooter/target ground speeds and therefore maintaining the same speed relative to shooter and target. Counterintuitive.

 

[Mark37082]

My brain just produced a small puff of smoke…. Next time I see a deer driving a car, or at extremely long range I probably won't pull the trigger. Back to the OP's question. Either barrel will work. Buy the one that makes you feel good.

 

[vedauvoo]

The most accurate rifle I've ever owned is a Remington .260 with a 5R rifled barrel.

I'd be hard pressed to go with anything else on my future builds.

I haven't owned one yet but the 3 groove Lilja barrels have piqued my interest.

I know carbon fiber barrels are lighter and the cool thing to do now but I'm not yet convinced they are the way to go.

I wish Kirby was around, I always appreciate his expertise on this subject.

I had a Kimber Montana rebarreled with a Kimber taper Lilja 3 groove SS 2 years ago. What was a bruising 325 WSM is now a mild mannered 6.5 PRC that is stupid accurate.

So I'm a believer.

 

[Huntnpack]

Having owned both I prefer a Bartlein barrel over most others. The last Proof I ran shot just ok.
The barrel was very inconsistent on the O.D. Taper
Poor Finish work.
All of my Bartlein barrels have shot very well.
Latest Bartlein #4 Carbon with the 400 Mod BB
S.S. Core shoots Awesome !!!!

 

[Willys]

Ref left or right hand rifling and the torque induced from heavy calibers and light rifles - which one is more condusive to your cheek / hold resisting the stock torque I wonder? Stock pushing against palm and against cheek seems would work best? Meaning rh rifling?