Possible New State Record Mulie

[wapitiaddict]

I cant think of any mule deer in western Mt that doesn't benefit from improved water and feed from some ag or cattle.

I agree. Nevada has various government/nonprofit partnered projects that establish "artificial" water tanks in certain areas to promote better mule deer habitat.

Tens of thousands of private acres in the east are leased to hunters who grow food plots, set up trail cams, give specific deer names, shoot management does or bucks, put out feeders and stash mineral blocks to promote whitetail antler growth (where legal). Yet those deer are counted in the record books.

I believe Utah promotes in certain areas the shooting of certain populations of mule deer that have genetic "defects" that only grow three points on one side. Many states have minimum antler points requirements and Alaska has certain spread requirements for moose.... All to promote and "manage" higher quality trophy animals. Not to mention super limited entry draw hunts where a few lucky hunters have a big chance at a trophy animal.

Many big game animals taken in Alaska are spotted from the bush plane the day before on the fly-in.

In Idaho, and I imagine other western states, the Fish and Game spread out and feed hay to wintering elk and deer in winter ranges. If that isn't "artificial management" then I don't know what is. (I support this because otherwise winter kill would be even more devasting some years.)

A record doesn't have to be shot on public land.

Yeah, I might not like some of what the guy did, and big money is hard to compete with for the average Joe like me, but hard to hold him to a different standard when most of this is done all across the country, and done by public agencies.

 

[Deleted member 115374]

Wow a lot of opinion. I know Greg. I grew up in West Texas and have met Greg on a number of occasions as he owns a successful outfitting business there. He seems to me to be an ethical guy and hunter, and That was a hell of a buck. Funny the buck in the second pic was taken on a Texas Parks hunt in Yokam dunes-and I think it was a Big Time Texas draw hunt--so yeah it is a 100% "free range". I have found that most people that scream from the top of their lungs free range spend more time worrying and less hunting. Oh I'm from Texas too, and I've climbed hills for Desert Bighorn and Aoudad here and stand hunted highfence and open range for Axis and whitetail....and I have enjoyed it all. Hunting is more in your heart and soul and less a mindset.

I agree. Nevada has various government/nonprofit partnered projects that establish "artificial" water tanks in certain areas to promote better mule deer habitat.

Tens of thousands of private acres in the east are leased to hunters who grow food plots, set up trail cams, give specific deer names, shoot management does or bucks, put out feeders and stash mineral blocks to promote whitetail antler growth (where legal). Yet those deer are counted in the record books.

I believe Utah promotes in certain areas the shooting of certain populations of mule deer that have genetic "defects" that only grow three points on one side. Many states have minimum antler points requirements and Alaska has certain spread requirements for moose.... All to promote and "manage" higher quality trophy animals. Not to mention super limited entry draw hunts where a few lucky hunters have a big chance at a trophy animal.

Many big game animals taken in Alaska are spotted from the bush plane the day before on the fly-in.

In Idaho, and I imagine other western states, the Fish and Game spread out and feed hay to wintering elk and deer in winter ranges. If that isn't "artificial management" then I don't know what is. (I support this because otherwise winter kill would be even more devasting some years.)

A record doesn't have to be shot on public land.

Yeah, I might not like some of what the guy did, and big money is hard to compete with for the average Joe like me, but hard to hold him to a different standard when most of this is done all across the country, and done by public agencies.

Sorry, I should have been more specific in describing artificial feeding. Someone had mentioned the feedgrounds at Jackson Hole and others. I think there is a difference here. I am very familiar with the feedground at Jackson Hole- my great uncle was the first manager of the feedground, he was a game warden in Jackson until one bad winter came along. before he passed away he told me that winter where the Refuge is now he could walk across the width of the refuge and not put a foot on the ground due to the fact he was walking on dead elk. At that time the Wyoming Game and Fish Dept. decided to feed the Elk during the winter when necessary. They started with hay on horse drawn sleighs and I was fortunate enough to ride along and kick hay off to the elk. My great uncle was asked to take on the task of managing the refuge and he accepted, my grandfather took over the position of game warden. I can recall multiple packs of coyotes numbering 20 or more to a pack on the fringes of the refuge herd and I have home movies of my parents that show this. This was in the early 60s when I was 6-7 yrs old. They have since gone to pellets vs/loose hay. The point I was trying to make re: trophy buck is this: The pellets/hay fed at the feedgrounds is NOT antler growth accelerating feed. It is just natural grown alfalfa/grass with no growth additives to enhance horn growth. It is put into pellet form for economic and ease of feeding reasons is my understanding. Those elk and the great majority of all feedground elk still have to survive hunting season before they get to the refuge, evade predators year round including their time on the refuge which now include more Grizzlies,Wolves,coyotes and Black Bears. These are free ranging elk that still use their migratory routes from the high country to the Refuge. I seriously doubt that the buck in question raised in a controlled environment, fed antler growth enhancing pellets with some serious predator control to keep him alive can be considered a free ranging,fair chase trophy. I am not disputing that he is a nice buck, just saying there is a difference. Take a look at the deer that migrate out of the backcountry in Wyoming 60+miles to the red desert to winter or the deer that migrate out of the Bob Marshall Wilderness on the East Front or the deer that migrate out of the Absorakee Wilderness Area in Wyoming and Montana with no food or water supplements and have to evade all of the predators mentioned above. No Sir! that Texas buck cant hold a candle to a true free ranging mule deer.

 

[Deleted member 115374]

Sorry, I should have been more specific in describing artificial feeding. Someone had mentioned the feedgrounds at Jackson Hole and others. I think there is a difference here. I am very familiar with the feedground at Jackson Hole- my great uncle was the first manager of the feedground, he was a game warden in Jackson until one bad winter came along. before he passed away he told me that winter where the Refuge is now he could walk across the width of the refuge and not put a foot on the ground due to the fact he was walking on dead elk. At that time the Wyoming Game and Fish Dept. decided to feed the Elk during the winter when necessary. They started with hay on horse drawn sleighs and I was fortunate enough to ride along and kick hay off to the elk. My great uncle was asked to take on the task of managing the refuge and he accepted, my grandfather took over the position of game warden. I can recall multiple packs of coyotes numbering 20 or more to a pack on the fringes of the refuge herd and I have home movies of my parents that show this. This was in the early 60s when I was 6-7 yrs old. They have since gone to pellets vs/loose hay. The point I was trying to make re: trophy buck is this: The pellets/hay fed at the feedgrounds is NOT antler growth accelerating feed. It is just natural grown alfalfa/grass with no growth additives to enhance horn growth. It is put into pellet form for economic and ease of feeding reasons is my understanding. Those elk and the great majority of all feedground elk still have to survive hunting season before they get to the refuge, evade predators year round including their time on the refuge which now include more Grizzlies,Wolves,coyotes and Black Bears. These are free ranging elk that still use their migratory routes from the high country to the Refuge. I seriously doubt that the buck in question raised in a controlled environment, fed antler growth enhancing pellets with some serious predator control to keep him alive can be considered a free ranging,fair chase trophy. I am not disputing that he is a nice buck, just saying there is a difference. Take a look at the deer that migrate out of the backcountry in Wyoming 60+miles to the red desert to winter or the deer that migrate out of the Bob Marshall Wilderness on the East Front or the deer that migrate out of the Absorakee Wilderness Area in Wyoming and Montana with no food or water supplements and have to evade all of the predators mentioned above. No Sir! that Texas buck cant hold a candle to a true free ranging mule deer.

 

[dok7mm]

It's strange that you have been able to justify feeding alfalfa in Wyoming and Montana when animals are in stress. Then turn around and say a buck in Texas is not entitled to the same.

Alfalfa has approximately 20% crude protein and protein is fundamental to antler growth, regardless of the state.

You haven't been to Culbertson County TX, that's obvious. It is one of the most arid parts of the state, with only 10" of rainfall in good years. The few mule deer have a rough time finding water, so land stewarts provide help, like your Grandfather did for elk.


Fawn survival is poor due to coyote and lion predation and lions take a lot of adults.

I don't have any idea how you decided the buck, in question, received any kind of antler "super enhancer". Does that mean any buck, that has a rack that is well above normal, should be suspect? I like to think it's partially genetics and the luck to survive predators.

Why did you decide this buck and this hunter are not up to your standards?
Greg watched that buck for four years because he was exceptional for his age group, waiting til he became a true trophy.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I hate to see anyone who decides a hunter or trophy "can't hold a candle" to others.

Hunting is somewhat different from state to state and people have different methods due to conditions. I hope all hunters stay banded together and support each other.

 

[West Calamus]

I don't understand the attitude of public land hunters basking private land hunters. First off why don't you holier then thou public land hunters 1st pull out your federal lands atlas. Texas and the midwest states and east don't have large tracts of BLM and Forest service lands. 90 % of the land in texas Ks. Olka Nebr Iowa is private land. In Arizona 90% of the land is state or federally owned. August in Texas is like January in Colorado, the country is dried up and there is not a blade of grass to be had. A real deer conservationist on private lands will pass a good buck up and let him grow his alters to full potential knowing he will breed until he is about 6 and die of old age by 8. Public land hunters blast away at the first 3 year old deer or elk they see so the guy out of Missoula doesn't get him! That statement has no more truth to it then the uninformed bashers on this thread make.

 

[Deleted member 115374]

It's strange that you have been able to justify feeding alfalfa in Wyoming and Montana when animals are in stress. Then turn around and say a buck in Texas is not entitled to the same.

Alfalfa has approximately 20% crude protein and protein is fundamental to antler growth, regardless of the state.

You haven't been to Culbertson County TX, that's obvious. It is one of the most arid parts of the state, with only 10" of rainfall in good years. The few mule deer have a rough time finding water, so land stewarts provide help, like your Grandfather did for elk.


Fawn survival is poor due to coyote and lion predation and lions take a lot of adults.

I don't have any idea how you decided the buck, in question, received any kind of antler "super enhancer". Does that mean any buck, that has a rack that is well above normal, should be suspect? I like to think it's partially genetics and the luck to survive predators.

Why did you decide this buck and this hunter are not up to your standards?
Greg watched that buck for four years because he was exceptional for his age group, waiting til he became a true trophy.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I hate to see anyone who decides a hunter or trophy "can't hold a candle" to others.

Hunting is somewhat different from state to state and people have different methods due to conditions. I hope all hunters stay banded together and support each other.

I didnt say the hunter wasnt up to my standards-dont put words in my mouth. Nor did I say the deer wasnt up to my standards. I know nothing about your hunting capabilities, nor did I claim to. The discussion is about the deer, Not you, not about your personal character, nor is it a judgement of yourself of any kind. For example: a truly free ranging buck of the kind I am speaking about is not a deer that can be observed for 4 yrs until it becomes "shootable". It is a deer that if a hunter is lucky enough and works hard enough- he just might see him, not necessarily get a shot at him. A deer of this caliber-such as yours- a hunter in Montana might see 3 or 4 in a lifetime of hunting big mulies. Certainly not a deer that lived in an environment where it could be monitored over a 4 yr. period. In my mind there is a big difference. I have spent 20+yrs hunting big free range public land mule deer in Montana and have only seen 2 in the 200" class when I had a rifle in my hand, One I missed at 150 yds standing broadside (buck fever at age 50 no less) the other at about 300 yds with no shot as he walked over the skyline. I am sorry if I offended you personnaly, that wasnt my intent. As far as the super enhancer comment goes, there was a reply to your post that said the property had multiple automated enhanced pellet feeders on the property. Maybe he mispoke. In Texas you guys do things much differently than up here. Feeders of any type are illegal in Montana and other Western states. Baiting deer or any big animal is illegal in Montana as well as mineral blocks, attractants etc.. We dont hunt bears over baits nor do we hunt them with dogs because it is illegal- all in the spirit of fair chase hunting! THERE LIES THE RUB. Again I will say it wasnt a personal attack on you, however in my opinion the conditions under which you killed your buck "cant hold a candle to the conditions that it takes to kill a true free ranging trophy mule deer buck" We can agree to disagree on this, your opinion vs mine. I do agree that hunters need to band together we are losing hunters as a whole- but that doesnt mean we have to agree on everything including this subject. By the way it was my great uncle you referred to as being a steward for the elk, not my grandfather. My great uncle was Almer Nelson-ran the refuge from its inception until his retirement-30 +yrs I think. My grandfather was Fred Deyo, game warden not sure how many yrs. but he literally died in the saddle. on the job.

 

[Deleted member 115374]

I don't understand the attitude of public land hunters basking private land hunters. First off why don't you holier then thou public land hunters 1st pull out your federal lands atlas. Texas and the midwest states and east don't have large tracts of BLM and Forest service lands. 90 % of the land in texas Ks. Olka Nebr Iowa is private land. In Arizona 90% of the land is state or federally owned. August in Texas is like January in Colorado, the country is dried up and there is not a blade of grass to be had. A real deer conservationist on private lands will pass a good buck up and let him grow his alters to full potential knowing he will breed until he is about 6 and die of old age by 8. Public land hunters blast away at the first 3 year old deer or elk they see so the guy out of Missoula doesn't get him! That statement has no more truth to it then the uninformed bashers on this thread make.

You obviously know nothing about public land hunters in Montana. There are 2 types. The ones that hunt just to put meat on the table, and yes they will take a spike bull or a cow elk or a 2 point buck or a doe if they can in an area where it is legal-for meat. The other one is the trophy hunter who passes on the 2,3 and small 4 pointers or spikes and raghorn bulls so they can get some age on them and maybe grow up to be something someday. The majority of the "hunters that blast away at anything that moves are the out of staters that come to this state and cut fences,trespass w/o permission and herd shoot animals. They are driving vehicles with plates from Texas, California, Washington and Wisconsin mainly. As far as truth to the statement you have no idea because you dont live here or hunt here year in and year out- so I will consider the source on this one

 

[JMW67]

well another one gets the ignore button and in only two days

 

[Deleted member 115374]

well another one gets the ignore button and in only two days

Works for me !!

 

[Deleted member 115374]

Works for me again !!

 

[100percent]

Lord help us all!

 

[100percent]

Game management on ONE specific piece of property with the sole intent of growing a record buck...and then getting special permission to kill it out of season...I'm glad other states don't allow that type of BS "management"
Lots of mgt and extended opportunities you fail to recognize such as special tags (governors/raffle) in most western states with proceeds going to mgt initiatives, Ranching for Wildlife tags in CO, landowner tags, limited entry (trophy) units in most all states, Utah has a prolific management plan for both elk and mule deer that has been highly successful in producing book heads of both species. MDF and RMEF projects take place in many western states to enhance habitat for ungulates, winter feeding, food plots, ag fields, ranch water, stream weirs, etc.... in most any state you choose. Don't dare go to one of the acclaimed Indian reservations like Jicarilla, because they have "management" figured out as, they are doing a lot of what you despise in Texas. Sad to say but your home state is one of the best resources in the world that has not been managed for best practices since the early 70's. If the leftist had ANY notion of how to manage their game and lands, you wouldn't need to travel to hunt elsewhere! Pick your poison as the juice is not sweet!

To the OP—What an excellent specimen! Thanks for sharing and apologies for rude behavior of a few.

Envy slays itself with it's own arrows!!!

 

[dok7mm]

I didnt say the hunter wasnt up to my standards-dont put words in my mouth. Nor did I say the deer wasnt up to my standards. I know nothing about your hunting capabilities, nor did I claim to. The discussion is about the deer, Not you, not about your personal character, nor is it a judgement of yourself of any kind. For example: a truly free ranging buck of the kind I am speaking about is not a deer that can be observed for 4 yrs until it becomes "shootable". It is a deer that if a hunter is lucky enough and works hard enough- he just might see him, not necessarily get a shot at him. A deer of this caliber-such as yours- a hunter in Montana might see 3 or 4 in a lifetime of hunting big mulies. Certainly not a deer that lived in an environment where it could be monitored over a 4 yr. period. In my mind there is a big difference. I have spent 20+yrs hunting big free range public land mule deer in Montana and have only seen 2 in the 200" class when I had a rifle in my hand, One I missed at 150 yds standing broadside (buck fever at age 50 no less) the other at about 300 yds with no shot as he walked over the skyline. I am sorry if I offended you personnaly, that wasnt my intent. As far as the super enhancer comment goes, there was a reply to your post that said the property had multiple automated enhanced pellet feeders on the property. Maybe he mispoke. In Texas you guys do things much differently than up here. Feeders of any type are illegal in Montana and other Western states. Baiting deer or any big animal is illegal in Montana as well as mineral blocks, attractants etc.. We dont hunt bears over baits nor do we hunt them with dogs because it is illegal- all in the spirit of fair chase hunting! THERE LIES THE RUB. Again I will say it wasnt a personal attack on you, however in my opinion the conditions under which you killed your buck "cant hold a candle to the conditions that it takes to kill a true free ranging trophy mule deer buck" We can agree to disagree on this, your opinion vs mine. I do agree that hunters need to band together we are losing hunters as a whole- but that doesnt mean we have to agree on everything including this subject. By the way it was my great uncle you referred to as being a steward for the elk, not my grandfather. My great uncle was Almer Nelson-ran the refuge from its inception until his retirement-30 +yrs I think. My grandfather was Fred Deyo, game warden not sure how many yrs. but he literally died in the saddle. on the job.

This is an example of how much attention you have payed to the posts.
I am not the lucky hunter that took the buck. I was probably hunting mule deer in Montana, HaHa!
Sounds like I've had better luck there, over the years, than you. Montana is a great place for hunters and has lots of beautiful country. Most of the residents are really nice, even to Texans. I would guess the non- residents are major contributors to Montana Fish & Game and local merchants.

It's obvious you are more against the hunter, than the deer. After all, the deer wasn't at fault.

I don't expect to change your mindset, so have a nice day.

 

[Deleted member 115374]

Thats a good one ! you have a nice day as well !!