Our fine government at work, ALREADY!!!

[RockyMtnMT]

Was I making too much sense? I was just defending myself as I am being called a liberal. Sorry to poop in your sandbox. You may go back to stroking each other now, stroke extra hard for gunsmiths- their egos need fed several times a day.

Again- anyone who called me liberal: you can't spell assumption without ***!

And not to change the subject, but give me a break. You need to test your cartridge on caged animals? Who are you kidding? I've been reading this board for years and I don't think anyone out there believes that you just needed to go on a high fence hunt in order to test some "new" cartridge that is really just some existing one necked out to a different diameter.

Liberals cause forest fires. Good one!

I didn't see Kirby mention you by name when he complained about the people that voted for Obamma, or sat out altogether. Yet you took it upon your self to insinuate that he is a lesser man than you because he hunted animals that are owned by an individual. Explain how his not being happy about current political policies, and the reason for them coming about, warrants a personal attack on your part when he really is trying to defend your gun rights. The good thing for you is that there are people like Kirby that are willing to fight for your rights while you attack him for doing it. Your personal conflicts must be difficult.

Steve

 

[Fiftydriver]

Troutslayer,

If you are so well educated on me and everything about me you already know that the bullet I tested was a prototype aluminum tipped 338 bullet which at that time, there were non of its kind anywhere.

There were also at least two others in the works from different manufacturers at that same time, you did not know this but we did.

As such, I made up my 338 Allen Xpress as a platform to test this new bullet design. The hunt was booked mainly for testing this bullet and secondarily for testing the AX. In this business, the first one out of the gate generally gets the most business from a new product.

If you do not believe that, look at and compare the WSM and the SAUMs. Winchester beat Remington by several months and look what happens, the WSMs are well established and the SAUMs are basically on the edge of extinction. Is there any real difference between either of these? NO but because winchester was the first out of the gate, they got the market, all of the market. Same goes for new bullets, if you can not wrap your head around that, that is your problem.

We had no idea when the other bullet makers would release their products so we had to get results ASAP so I spent my own money to get some field results on an animal that was appropriate for this class of bullet. If I had waited for the general big game season here in Montana, I would have had to wait for another 2 months and even then, I would be playing the odds to even get to test the bullet on a wild elk.

I have never claimed my elk was anything other then what it was, a high fence hunt. It was not a canned hunt but I have no desire to try to explain that to you because its a waste of my time.

As far as your attachs on my wildcats. Talk about a closed minded comment that is based in something other then an educated opinion.

I started my wildcat family with the 257, 6.5mm and 270 Allen Magnum. The 25 and 6.5 are based on the 338 RUM necked down and fireformed to a unique shoulder design and body taper. Who did I copy with those. Anyone out there before me making a 25 caliber magnum that could drive a 156 gr bullet with a BC of .820 to 3450 fps????

Did anyone have a 6.5mm out there that would drive a 169 gr bullet at 3400 fps???

Did anyone have a 270 on the market that was driving a 169.5 gr bullet with a BC of .740 to over 3400 fps????

Then came the 277 and 7mm AM based on the Lapua case. Had anyone made a 270 that would drive a 195 gr bullet with a BC of .950 to a velocity of 3250 fps? Was there a 7mm out there that was pushing a 200 gr bullet with a BC of .920 at 3300 fps?????

Answer to all, NO!!!

These wildcats gained in popularity so fast it was hard to believe. Then the public started to demand a 30 and 338 caliber on the same design as the 7mm AM based on the 30 cal so I simply necked it up to 30 cal and 338 cal. They really only came to life because the public demanded it, not because I wanted to put my name on more wildcats but I was more then willing to invest the time and money to test and come out with these wildcats for my customers that wanted them including coming out with dies.

Then I wanted more performance so I looked at the 338 on the 408 CT case. I looked at what was out there already, the Sniper Tac, Big Baer were both 3300 fps chamberings with the 300 gr SMK. I wanted more so I shortened the neck to increase body length and put my Allen Magnum shoulder and body design on the case and came out with a wildcat that would get a legit 3400 fps or roughly a full 100 fps over the existing 408 based 338 wildcats.

We were also combining my wildcat with the then prototype 265 gr AT RBBT and as far as I know, we were the first to sustain super sonic velocity and sub moa accuracy out to past 3000 yards, just copy catting????

Then I took things to a larger caliber and came out with the 375 AM, even before there was the 350 gr SMK in this caliber I had the 375 up and running, even before Chey tac offered their 375 Chey Tac. I am not saying they were not working on it but my test rifle was sitting on the bench before they got their first final design 350 gr SMK to test, in fact they sent me 500 of the prototype bullets to test and report on. Copy catting again......?????

Oh, and who is offering fully formed correct headstamped cases for their wildcats in the 338 and 375 rounds based on the Chey Tac case???? If anyone is now doing that, they are the copy catters, not me

I get really tired of trying to defend myself to those that think like you do but I always reply to them simply to prove them wrong and and let themselves look silly in public because the more they talk the more the public knows how silly their opinion is.

As far as your polictical stand points, you may think your in the right but as has been mentioned, when they take out firearms away and prevent us from going onto our public land to hunt and fish, just go look in the mirror and tell yourself thanks because you helped it happen.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Speaking of liberal tactics, this is a major one.

They do something in an attempt to take away some aspect of our way of life wether it be hoppy or carrer and then when someone tries to bring light on the subject that would make most fighting mad, even if they are not shooters, then they attach those that bring the topic to light.

And it often works. Instead of focusing our enthusiasm toward the problem and organize to get something done, they change the subject and scatter the original topic until no one remembers what the original topic even was.

How in the hell did we go from talking about the government stepping way over the line and abusing their power to how I am not a man because I killed an elk inside a huge section of land with a fence around it. This post was started to put it out there what was happening because VERY FEW, if any of you would have ever heard anything about it.

I garantee it would not be printed in the papers in Missoula.

I do not care what Troutslayer things about me personally. I want everyone to know what happening even if it takes listening to someone like him attack me, you need to know what is going on and if I hear something that concerns you, you will hear it.

I will not comment to Troutslayer again on the subject. I know his opinion of me, he should now know mine toward him.

I want to get back to the point. Forget the crap he has started and go back and read the original post because thats the important topic at hand. This government is out of control and I will not let Troutslayer derail the topic for whatever reason he has for doing it. Obviosuly he has a reason for doing it, I do not care, its unimportant and not worth mentioning.

Again, go back to the original post and lets get focused again. Make some noise before its to late.

 

[Pdvdh]

As usual you can't stay on subject. How is the for mentioned policies better than having Palin as vice Pres? Easy question, just focus.

Steve

I'm on subject. Palin was predicted as a loser as an elected official, and she would have been worse than having to pay $250 as a tarriff to send a barrel out of the US. If that's the sacrifice for not having Palin as Vice President, and potentially Commander in Chief, I accept that trade any day. You wanna send attack posts back at me because you disagree with me, it's a free world, provided you don't completely lose it and Len or Dick cut you off. Is that on track (on subject) enough for you. Like I said, the biggest waste of my time was responding to posts like your's in 2008, and it would be an even bigger waste to respond to your posts now.

If guns is the only concern you have in life then Palin, Big Bird, or any other nominee of the Republican party will obviously suit your fancy 100% of the time. If a sister, daughter, or any women gets raped and they're prevented from the abortion they deserve under that circumstance, or in cases of incest, yet because Palin's trying to impress the extreme right or because she believes only she has the right to make these decisions on our behalf and enacts law to prevent that right of personal choice; that would concern me as much as the gun issue. If Palin spreads obvious lies about her opponents in the effort to win election, if she fires appointed government employees because they won't fire a family enemy who happens to be a subordinate employee, and if she settles personal non-government business matters by abuse of her elected authority, than that's a concern that competes with reverting back to the loss of 10-plus round clips and magazines. If Palin keeps us in Iraq for another 8 years and another 4000 troops die and many more are maimed for life while we try to referee a country that would rather engage in civil war than compromise and get along, then that concerns me equally with having to have gun checks at gun shows. I gave the reasons I considered valid for avoiding Palin. They didn't matter to you then and they wouldn't matter now. So what are you really asking of me Steve? Will you settle for anything less than a personal attack unless I lie and tell you I see eye to eye with you 100%. You're the model of compromise.

If your vote is cast soley on the gun issue, then nothing I say could ever satisfy you. And if your joy in life is attacking every member on this forum that has a different political perspective than you, then you waste both your time and the time of the members you attack. What are you hoping for? All your buddies will come running out of the cornfield to support your narrow-minded ways and then pile on and attack any member that voices a difference of opinion? Will that make you a man? Does that allow you to feel and sleep better?

Kirby's purpose is to rally the forces to preserve our gun rights under whatever administration is elected. That's a noble cause and I support it. Your's is apparently to pout and then attack any member that doesn't side with your political preferences. I would say you've got the knack to divide long range hunters, short range hunters, gun owners of any sort, trappers, virtually any group or membership, if you just applied your talents and worked at it hard enough. You should be proud of your charisma when it comes to uniting the forces of good against evil.

You wanna ask me any more questions? Come on now, let's stay on subject... as defined by Steve. You wanna come back and further your divisive causes, whatever they might be.

Let me help you express yourself. Any LRH Forum member that voted for anyone other than the candidates that Steve voted for, why you're quite a dispicable human being.

Steve, does that pretty much cover it? Have I now stayed "on subject" to your satisfaction?

 

[Troutslayer]

I didn't see Kirby mention you by name when he complained about the people that voted for Obamma, or sat out altogether. Yet you took it upon your self to insinuate that he is a lesser man than you because he hunted animals that are owned by an individual. Explain how his not being happy about current political policies, and the reason for them coming about, warrants a personal attack on your part when he really is trying to defend your gun rights. The good thing for you is that there are people like Kirby that are willing to fight for your rights while you attack him for doing it. Your personal conflicts must be difficult.

Steve

If he is trying to defend my rights I would have him stop because I my rights are better off without his help. I was only pointing out that he is getting his facts from right wing extremists who are no better than the other kind. Liberals are not responsible for forest fires, poor forest management is responsible. Much of that management is directly correlated to unmitigated logging. You can be a conservative and care about the environment. All of you ********* think that gun rights and anything that resembles progress are mutually exclusive. They are not.

Steve, I have no personal conflicts, I just have a strange ability to think for myself and decide for myself what is right and wrong. Just because Rush Limbaugh tells me something I do not believe it to be so. It's called independent thought- you should try it.

 

[MN Hunter]

All this has turned into a personal exchange that has no end- All I have to say is remember

"opinions are like assholes, everyone has one."

me included.

Maybe it's time to stop.

By the way - why the F@#$ am I up at 1am? I just finished watching Shawn's Sent It dvd. It came in the mail today - I put it on and couldn't stop watching it. All I can say is WOW. Lots of great info and unbelievable exhibition of shooting. I hope to shoot half that good someday.

By the way - how do you get out of getting the automatic e-mails when somebody posts a reply to a thread? I need to do that with this one.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I'll quit. My goal was met and then some.

Steve

 

[shimoda]

Chances are that if Troutslayer is true to his user name and slays trout, he is fishing in stocked waters.

How is that different than high-fence hunting?

 

[ejones338]

I need to make several points here and I'm sure I will get drilled from both sides for it.

1. Idiots! Divide and conquor. Have you heard of it. Obviously we are all on the same side at different levels. Hunt, fish, hike, etc. We are meat eating beer drinking men that love the smell of gunpowder in the morning. We CANNOT afford to divide ourselves into small groups and expect good results. For those that voted for Obama I suggest that you work extra hard to appose phony gun legislation.

2. I saw earlier that the Flathead here in Montana was mentioned as a hotspot for liberals. I say only in appearance. I live in Columbia Falls, and have yet to meet one. Are they here? Obviously. But a few of them them work very well together and make things happen. The rest of us are so busy attacking our own that we forget to do the right thing sometimes.

3. They did it again. Over 180 miles of trails were just closed near Marias pass to motorized use, but we are apposing the closure getting signatures and having a meeting at Penco in Kalispell on the 14th at 7pm to inform others and come up with a solid plan of opposition. my understanding is that only 4 votes for closure came from montana, and the majority came from back east.

 

[ejones338]

4. I was informed that a rifle manufacturer here in Montana (name ommited because I havn't proven it yet) donated a large sum of money to the Obama campaign and has now been banned from sale at cabelas. Should they be left to rot and whither away, or should they be given a chance to redeem themselves. I'm sure that they had their reasons for believing that they were making the right choice, but again I say that they need to work extra hard to appose gun legislation aimed at taking away our rights and their way of life.

5. Jim Zumbo. Remember what he said and what happened. Only Ted nugent refrained from attacking him and instead informed and accepted him and as a result found the common ground and brought Zumbo more firmly into the fight for our rights. Nugent!

6. Rifle or bow? Single or auto? New age or nostalgic? Who cares let's find common ground and not dwell on our differences, and let's make a difference wher it counts.

7. Even if you don't agree with me on my logging views I will stand beside you for the fight of another view if we agree on it.

 

[Fiftydriver]

First off, I am not passing on propaganda. My information came right from the source that has been charged these huge fee increases and who had to come up with over $100,000 just to stay in business because the government thinks they can do whatever the hell they want.

I have also learned that there may not be a single law that is on the books that we would be able to look up and read the fine print concerning this as the fees are set and at the discression of the State department...... Again, SCARY!!!

I had a converstation with a MONTANA company that has been badly hit in a financial way and I wanted the membership here on LRH to be informed about what has happened. If this does not offend and outrage everyone here on LRH, EVERYONE, including some that are taking an opportunity to take a jab at me personally, you are not protecting our way of life.

If you can read that the government has a imposed retroactive fees on any business and not be upset about that and feel that this is acceptable.........

Imagine this, if you got a call from your county DMV and they tell you that they are changing the vehicle licensing requirements and instead of paying $400 a year for your new 2006 GMC Duramax, now you will have to pay $100 A MONTH. Not only that, you will also have to come up with the $100 a month for the past two years that you have owned your truck!!!!

Would that **** you off? Would that be over the line for the government to do this???

How about if you make something totally unrelated to the firearm industry. Suppose you are an artist and sell wildlife artwork. And you get a call form the government and they tell you you will have to now pay a $12,000 for a license to export artwork out of the country. On top of that, you will also pay $200 for each piece you export every year.

Then on top of that, they say, you will also have to pay $250 on every piece of artwork you have ever shipped in past years....... Would that **** YOU OFF??? Would that be the government overstepping their powers????

This is not a pro-gun or anti-gun issue, this is not a liberal or conservative issue at heart. This is simply an issue of if this is acceptable for the government to do whatever in the hell they want and basically tell private business owners to either pay up to they will be put out of business.

Hell, 50 years ago, this is the type of thing organized crime would do. This is also the exact type of thing that we went to war over in our revolutionary war. Have we all forgotten history????

Forget guns, forget policitial opinions, this is pure and simple, if you were a small business owner, would it be acceptable for the government to do this to you? Many of us sit aside because something does not effect us directly so we let it slide.

This type of behavior is like crack cocaine, the more you do it the more you need it and the more you will try to get it. If you do not believe me, just look over history and see where we have come from the day this country started. Its really sad to be honest because we have always just set back and let it happen because some slick politician told us it had to be this way to SAVE or PROTECT or HELP. When in fact they accomplish none of this, only get more people under their "Protective" wing and take away their desire to help themselves.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Ejones338,

I agree with most everything you say and I think everyone else does as well. There are only a couple things I would like to discuss, namely the owner of Cooper Arms that you refer to and also Jim Zumbo.

When a member of an industry, does something or states an opinion or supports a group of people that everyone else in that industry 100% believes that their actions will HURT the industry they are in, how can they not take action against this.

Imagine if Obama went out and bought an AK-47 and said he would veto any gun legislation that came to his desk and that everyone in the US should have the right to own any type of firearm they want and as many as they want with no regulation of any kind. How do you think his party would react to that?

Same thing here. We set here and watched the head of Cooper Arms stand up and not only verbally support Obama but also sent him a large sum of money to help him get ellected.

He was a leading member of the firearm industry and he basically said, even though I know Obama and even more so Pelosie(SP?) and Reid will aggressively attack our industry, I am still going to support him. HOW can you ask others in the industry that make a living at it not show some outrage?

To that same point, his own board of directors stripped him of basically all of his power. They allowed him to have a position on the board but it really only a symbolic position. If his own company felt it was needed to punish him........

Obviously they felt he was doing something to damage the company, and he did exactly that. If Lilja got hammered this hard, Cooper arms also got hammered with these export fee changes.

As far as Zumbo, he also attacked the hand that fed him as well. There is nothing wrong with having an opinion but when it slaps the face of the people that directly make your live VERY comfortable and have for many decades, you deserve to get your comings. Not because of his opinion but because of his lack of respect for those that put him in the position he was in.

He never apologized one bit until he lost everything he had and had no choice. The only reason he finally did apologize was because he had no choice, it was that or go be a greeter at Wall-Mart!!! Once that happened he fell all over himself to apologize but until he lost everything, he was so errogant and stood by his TOTALLY UNEDUCATED opinion because he had grown so overblown with ego he thought whatever he said would be taken as gospil by the masses. That did not happen.

As far as Ted Nugent, he is a better man then I am for sure and he has done more for our rights then anyone else in recent decades. He is a true American Hero. Enough said about uncle Ted.

Had Zumbo apologized for what he said about Long Range Shooters and Hunters, I would have thought a bit differently about him but he never did because we do not have a loud enough voice to make that happen. The "Black Gun" industry has more then enough voice to be heard and they were heard instantly!!! Thats why they got an apology and we did not.

I personally do not feel that Zumbo was sincere with his apology, I feel it was something he had to do to save his rear and thats it. Nugent saved his ***, not Zumbo.

I fully agree we have to stand together but when a member of out family does something that critically damages our way of life and passions, how do we sit by and just let them get by with it? Not only is it hard to do but its not smart to let it happen.

Again, I fully agree with most of what you say but when someone says something that can damage our industry, especially of this person is someone that is supposed to be a spokeperson of our way of life, they need to be called out on that. IF they do not feel the way our family feels, they need not be a spokesman for our sport and way of life. Other then that, I agree with you fully.

 

[ejones338]

I agree. What I wrote was for EVERYONE of all opinions. Including cooper arms and zumbo. We ALL owe it to each other to work towards common ground, and protect our way of living. We cannot afford to let the anti this and anti that gain any more ground, which they seem to be quite good at.

Myself, I AM a member of the NRA, I DO rely on the timber industry for my very comfortable lifestyle, I DO consider myself to be a REPUBLICAN, and I will NOT throw away my vote to try and make a statement that NO ONE worth while ever hear.

I am outraged daily at the things this current administration is trying to do, and I agree with all my heart that this issue is wrong, as I am sure every one on this forum does. What I was trying to do was to get through to ALL and get them off of their ranting so that they could be directed to the issue at hand, instead of pouring concrete around the feet of the people on both sides of the political line.

 

[eddybo]

Kirby I am with ya, it is horrible.....but I still cannot find any legal authority for this to happen. Discretionary retroactive fees? Sounds like someone should hire an attorney as they are getting the shaft. If you find anything feel free to PM it to me. This is my last post in this thread, it has taken a tone I do not enjoy.