Notes on the Centenerian

[gvjm]

I started out with a 30-06 40 years ago and switched to the 308 shortly after. In bullets 150 and under there is no difference, period. In the 165 a small edge for the 06 which is negligible. In 180 the 06 dominates. This is from a hand loaders perspective. Accuracy is rifle dependent but 308 kicks less and can be more effective in shorter, lighter platforms. But by no means is the 06 irrelevant!

 

[Counselor II]

Shooters disregard the 30-06 because they hear that a .308 is so close to it as to make no difference, not because of any experience with reloading in general.

The 30-06 has 21% more case capacity of a .308 . That puts it nowhere close. When the manufacturers figures put .308 ballistics close to a 30-06, the pressure of the .308 is running higher than for the 30-06, so it is not an equal comparison. The 30-06 can approach the low end of the .30 magnums with equivalent bullet weights, which a .308 simply cannot.

The design of the 30-06 case lends itself to excellent accuracy potential. The ratio of the neck length to bore size is high for caliber, and exceeds the .30 caliber magnums. This means the bullet can be seated clear of the powder column, which is great for performance and accuracy.

When knocking 30-06 performance capability as "old wives tales" and "myths" of "special powers" , please save the yarn and try get to the numbers. Stick to quoting verifiable numbers.

There is nothing new from cartridges ballistically . A lot of cartridges duplicate each other's ballistics with specific bullet weights. The real innovations have been in bullet manufacture and platform evolution, giving us the long range capability that we have today.

The 30-06 should not be compared to any Creedmoor. Creedmoor calibers were designed with a shorter powder column to reduce recoil for target shooters - specifically to keep the scope on target after the shot. To compensate for the reduced powder capacity, the cartridge was mated to high BC bullets to reduce drop at long distance. This does not equate to terminal performance at long distance.

Taking the centenarian, loading it with the right powder, and mating it to suitable high BC bullets will give very interesting results.

The 30-06 cartridge is just under-rated, it is not inferior.

Shooters disregard the 30-06 because they hear that a .308 is so close to it as to make no difference, not because of any experience with reloading in general.

The 30-06 has 21% more case capacity of a .308 . That puts it nowhere close. When the manufacturers figures put .308 ballistics close to a 30-06, the pressure of the .308 is running higher than for the 30-06, so it is not an equal comparison. The 30-06 can approach the low end of the .30 magnums with equivalent bullet weights, which a .308 simply cannot.

The design of the 30-06 case lends itself to excellent accuracy potential. The ratio of the neck length to bore size is high for caliber, and exceeds the .30 caliber magnums. This means the bullet can be seated clear of the powder column, which is great for performance and accuracy.

When knocking 30-06 performance capability as "old wives tales" and "myths" of "special powers" , please save the yarn and try get to the numbers. Stick to quoting verifiable numbers.

There is nothing new from cartridges ballistically . A lot of cartridges duplicate each other's ballistics with specific bullet weights. The real innovations have been in bullet manufacture and platform evolution, giving us the long range capability that we have today.

The 30-06 should not be compared to any Creedmoor. Creedmoor calibers were designed with a shorter powder column to reduce recoil for target shooters - specifically to keep the scope on target after the shot. To compensate for the reduced powder capacity, the cartridge was mated to high BC bullets to reduce drop at long distance. This does not equate to terminal performance at long distance.

Taking the centenarian, loading it with the right powder, and mating it to suitable high BC bullets will give very interesting results.

The 30-06 cartridge is just under-rated, it is not inferior.

AMEN! The .30-06 is one of the two greatest cartridges ever designed. Along with the great .375 H & H, it spans the entire breath of the sport shooting experience. While there are many specialized that will perform individual tasks better none can claim the capability of performing so many tasks so well. Possession of rifles in these two calibers allowes the owner to participate effectively in the panoply of our sport. No other calibers can claim such diversity of abilities.

 

[fiftybmg]

So let me muddy the water a bit more...let's say I have .308 shooting a 180gr bullet at 2600 fps and have a 06 shooting the same bullet at the same speed. Which would have the advantage over the other? And more importantly.....why?

By the information provided, one is not better than the other. Two bullets of the same type and construction and at the same speed are effectively equal.

If you say what powder you're using, then one may be better by virtue of lower chamber pressure.

If you describe the 200 yard 5-shot groups, one may be better than the other by virtue of platform.

 

[Web1350]

Mudrunner29 de skipper29b: the reason is "MARKETING", plain and simple. As soon as something new hits the racks at stores everyone runs out to buy one? It's $$$$$$ they all know how to earn it!!!!

 

[rugers]

About 30 yrs ago I had a mauser action sitting around so I built a 30-06 tgt rifle 28 in straight contour barrel blue printed everything put it in a laminated tgt stock. Well it shot real good groups 1/4in at 100yds so yes if you go crazy with a 30-06 it will shoot as good as anything else. Would I do it again no but it proved a point at the range they can be as accurate as you want and or have the money to do so.

 

[bdlesh]

I agree to with your theory if both bullets have the same speed. But I'm not sure why your '06 is so slow with 180gr bullets? I get 2800fps with Nosler 180gr Partitions out of my 22" '06 barrel.

I can understand using the 308 Win for a semi-auto rifle (semis work better with shorter OALs), but I've never appreciated the benefit of a short action for a bolt action, big game hunting rifle. Pulling the bolt another 1/2" (actually less) is unnoticeable to the hunter. Being able to seat bullets farther out and improve velocities has its benefits.

Newer powders have even made the old '06 even better. Hornady's Superperformance ammo provides over 3000fps with its 150gr hunting bullet. My chrony verified this.

With its vast bullet selection and today's powders, I can't imagine being undergunned anywhere in North America with a properly loaded 30-06. It does it all!!!!

I was just using hypothetical numbers for speed. I see people talking about how one cartridge has an advantage over another shooting the same bullet at the same speed. I am just wondering what makes one better then the other? Especially of you are using them for hunting.

 

[skipglo]

Here we go again.

21% more powder doesn't automatically equal 21% greater performance...Anyone who's ever played around with cartridges or wildcats can tell you that. Cartridge design, burn rates, should angle, wall taper, burn column, all of these factor into performance. The .30-06 still does a great job at what it does, but it's just old school, and the design is old school. The whole entire reason we have the .308 Win (7.62x51 NATO) is because the military wanted a .30 caliber cartridge that would produce .30-06 Sprg. performance in a smaller, lighter, more compact package...And the .308 Win did just that. That's why it exists. "New" designed cartridges (like the Ackleys) are just a much better case design. Scientific facts. Does the old still work? Absolutely. But it's not up to par with the "new" designs when it comes down to burn characteristics and performance. If the old school case designs were so extraordinary, why does nobody still use them when they design their new cartridges...?

As for the 6.5CM, I'm pretty sure we all know where I stand on that one, and that I would not put it above the .308 or .30-06...Ever.

Also, I could see this thread getting really fun, really quickly. Can't wait for the festivities!!!

As you stated ..can't wait for the festivities...so just my 2 cents..."..if the old school design was that good...why doesn't everyone use them "...they actually do! Every straight wall case made today follows the ORIGINAL FIRST STRAIGHT WALL...EVERY BELTED CASE .. follows the ORIGINAL belted and every shoulder case follows the original shoulder case.....they may have all improved in materials and wall thickness... and capacity....but so has gunpowder...did not all gunpowder EVOLVE from the original gunpowder? The original anything lays the foundation for improvement and evolution.

 

[Web1350]

As I've been reading these posts, as well as others in the past, there has been one word that keeps ringing in my head and you just said it, "Marketing". When something new is introduced people seem to think it's the latest and the greatest therefore better than anything currently on the market. As an aside, many posters seem to feel they have the best caliber, gun, ammo, etc. and nothing else is relevant. To these people I say, we all have our opinions and likes just like you and because it's different than yours does not make you right.

 

[chickm1]

The .270 is not based on the 30 06. It was based on the 30 03 very similar but an earlier cartridge. 25 06 is a necked down 30 06.

The 270, 30-06 and the 280 were all designed from the 30-03, loaded with a 220 gr round nose bullet, to replace the 30-40 Krag, by the military. It had a 3 year life span.

 

[longrangebob]

Oh Brother — IMHO - choosing one rifle as the only one you have - very much depends on where you live & Hunt! Not talking Target — if so, then probably a Creedmore (6.5 or 6mm.)
But Hunting? - Long Distances with large Open Areas? Big Bears that when they Hear a Rifle Shot - equate that to a Dinner Bell & Come a Running !!!!! Under those circumstances my First Choice is my .340Wby as that only Rifle ? - as much as I love my Ole .300Winny (since 74) - she is upstaged by my 30-06 AI, iffin having to Chose Just One !!!! But if those Bears Frequent & Not just occasionally- Then No ifs &'s or buts - it's the .358STA — 250gr.+ with Full Throttle Loads - anything on this continent Bigger Monolithic Solids - (anywhere else too) - Loaded down (35 Whelan & 358 Winchester performance)
All around good for anything —)

Again for Targets - Creedmore - "BOOST = the Replacement for Displacement"

 

[johnnyk]

I have owned three .308's and one .30-06. The 1st .308 was an older Savage 110 J series and superbly accurate. Alas, a friend thought it was magic and had to have it
The 2nd and 3rd are still with me. One is a Savage 110 action and HS Precision stock with the barrel off of a model 12 BVSS. It is superbly accurate, now. The other is a DPMS AR-10 that I'm playing with and modifying.
The only "aught6" I ever owned was a gift from a guy who I suspected was sleeping with my first wife. It was a Winchester 70, blued/synthetic w/Leupold 3x9. Great gift but was not accurate. During load development and the search for at least an MOA load, I came to the conclusions that I'm at today. He definitely was getting "free pokes" and the -06 kicks too much for no more than it delivers. If I have to endure magnum recoil then I want magnum performance.
Oh, the Savage .308 barrel is setting in a corner here in the man cave. Been replaced w/a Shilen 6mmBR. Fun, fun, fun!
The 112BVSS in .300WinMag just got it's factory barrel (shot out) replaced w/a Pac-Nor 28", 1-9t, 5g .300WinMag.
Nothing wrong with either the .308 or .30-06, people are different and have different preferences. Hey, that's why restaurants have menu's. No one I know eats just cheeseburgers, all the way.
Safe shooting.

 

[Deleted member 48126]

Two of the best cartridges ever....

.22LR and .30-06



load the .30-06 right and let it shine.

 

[Rflshootr]

Here is an interesting perspective......and a pretty good read to the CM.

http://americanshootingjournal.com/260-remington-vs-6-5-creedmoor/

 

[chickm1]

Creedmoor calibers were designed with a shorter powder column to reduce recoil for target shooters - specifically to keep the scope on target after the shot.

The Creedmoor shooters use aperature sights, not scopes. And people can think what they want about the "superiority" of the Creedmore rounds, due to the shooting rag writers, but in reality, I will stick with my 7mm08. The 7.62x51 had ballistics almost as good as the 30-06, and sufficient for the average foot soldier. Carlos Hathcock, used a Mod 70 with the 30-06, during his time in Vietnam.