Noob reloading process question

[Slick8]

A little more info please.

1. What's your expectations for accuracy?
2. Is this a custom or factory rifle?
3. Chambering, Bullet, Brass and Powder?
4. What method did you use for charge weight testing and did you find max charge (pressure)?

 

[Bang4theBuck]

Honestly, reloading for accuracy better than 1 moa is a process that involves all aspects of process control. Not to say that it is difficult to control the important things, but you need to know what they are.
Controlling velocity may not seem important to you now, (unless you meant achieving extremely.high velocities wasn't important) but if you are a handloader, you will definately care about reducing ES/SD.
I think sticking with known combinations of powder/primers in certain cartridges is an easy way to reduce variables, and testing time.
Example would be 308 win. Varget with BR2 or CCI 200s and bullets in the 155 to 178 range is a no brainer. H4350 same primers with 130-143 class bullets in a 6.5 CM is a no brainer.
From there, I would concentrate on neck tension. Depending on your purpose .0015" to .004" of neck tension are usually optimal. If your does are basic full length sizing dies, you are controlling neck tension indirectly, by sizing the exterior of the case, with an unknown neck wall thickness, so you are achieving an ID on the neck that may or may not be optimal for your application. There is lots of variance in neck wall thickness. This is one of the biggest contributors to accuracy in my mind.
Varying Seating depth can definately improve accuracy, but is also usually the last tweak, and will often (not always) get you that last 25-30%.
Another thing I do with my shooting buddies is let them shoot one of my known accuracy rigs with my tuned ammo to see what the shooter is capable of. If the gun and load is 1/4 moa, and the shooter is only experienced enough to produce 1moa....then it is best to put the work in there before wasting components on accuracy tuning. Build a generic load and practice for a bit.
I love helping new reloaders get going and have a pretty proven amd economic system, if youbwoukd like any one on one guidance. Reach out via PM.

 

[Munch]

As I work up a load, my initial interest is velocity and SD. POA?POI come later.

If the load can't hold a 10 shot group (allowing for barrel cooling and/or using a bore fan between shots) with a SD of <10fps, I will move on to a different powder charge. I have minimal interest where the the projectiles are printing on paper at this point.

There is a ton of data at our fingertips today, so pretty easy to get a good starting point for powder charges. I generally load up 50 rounds, 10 rounds for each charge with .5 grain difference between 10 round groups. Based on data, I will likely have a pretty good idea where the sweet spot might be and will bracket this 10 shot group with 20 rounds on both sides at .5 grain increments.

I generally believe once you're holding consistent and repeatable velocities (SD <10fps) groupings you desire will fall into place. Of course, there have been times, very few, where the above technique didn't work. And it's time to look at changing projectiles and starting over again from scratch.

Also, if developing your loads in one section of the country and take them to another, regional differences can potentially throw everything out of wack. One hopes not to the point you miss that big elk or bull ram, but, elevation, temperature and humidity all have a say in how any given round performs. Why it is important to consider a powder that is more stable (less sensitive) across environmental factors if traveling a long distance from where you loaded the ammunition.

 

[nksmfamjp]

First, what rifle are we talking about? Second, what do you want? I used to want "the best I could make my rifle shoot" I would shoot hundreds of development rounds. Then I decided I needed my ammo to be repeatable. So I added a 5 groups of 5 test. These tests sometimes were terribly unrepeatable! Many times I shot 5 good groups. Sometimes I would print groups from 0.6 - 1.7" in 5 groups…..after 0.5 moa development groups.

Now I want to know what the smallest target I can hit with ~95% reliability at 100 yds based on expected rifle performance.

A word of caution….this is a new road for me based on many failures of old methods, seeing how quickly my 6mm PPC groups came together…..and listening to the last couple Hornady podcasts.

First, I set a reasonable expectation.
Custom Bolt gun - < 1 MOA at 100 yds
Factory Bolt gun - <1.5 MOA at 100 yds
and so on…..there are some variations to this rule. Custom bolt guns like my PPC are going to get tighter standards.….or other guns that just shoot better get a challenge std.

You are probably scoffing since I'm not holding $4000 custom rifles to 0.25 MOA like so many say. Well, the X ring in F class is 1 moa. So a 100% 1 moa system wins f class. 1 moa is minute of mule deer at 1000 yards. 1.5 moa is minute of elk at 1000 yards.

So, my next rounds are pick bullet, powder, etc. Seat to the shorter of lands -0.030"(0.050" for monos), Mag length, full bearing surface contact.

Load a ladder to find max pressure. You know the signs. I like bolt lift and ejector marks. Back off the appropriate amount….consider current temps vs max use temperature.

Load 20 about 0.5% back from no pressure signs at any temperature level. Seated the same. Shoot them. If they shoot bigger that your expectations, stop, disassemble and change something….

IMO, if you can get to 20 under 0.75MOA, shoot a few 3 and 5 shot forum/Facebook groups! I think you will have plenty of wall hanger groups for sharing and you will have a perfect zero and a good knowledge of what you can hit 95% of the time. You will also have a rock solid Sd! Those combined will make ringing steel like ringing a doorbell!

 

[skipglo]

Thanks guys. I'm working with the assumption of not changing bullets unless absolutely necessary. Given that parameter, do most folks change powders if their initial power test of various charge weights doesn't produce the desired results or do they try to fine tune seating depth?

I have a micrometer seating die and access to roughly 4 or 5 powders so either option is possible for my scenario. Just wondering if either is more efficient or if it's dealers choice and everyone has their preference.

I start with book recommendations on COAL...then use One powder and adjust powder in .3 gr increments- three loads each first. Then if the group is usable fine tune seating.....just me! If it isn't try another projectile!

 

[hunter0528]

Hi all,

Full disclosure, I have read/watched a fair bit about reloading, but have only done it a few times with the help of experienced family members. So I have some of the concepts down, but lack experience. Bear with me if this is common knowledge. My question is about how you what variables you adjust first when doing load development. Here is what I mean.

Let's say you have chosen a selected bullet that you want to develop a load around for a new rifle. So you're starting from scratch. You choose a powder, seating depth and do your initial load development. You get groups that are roughly around 1" to 1.25" at a 100 yards. Not bad, not great and you want to do better. Let's assume the SD/ES varied as your powder charge increased but was also in the not bad/not great range. In this situation, which of the following would you do?

1. Try a different powder.
2. Fine tune seating depth
3. Experiment with neck tension
4. Something else completely.

Assumptions: Precision and consistency, not ultra high velocity are the primary goals. Hopefully this question makes sense, if not please let me know what additional info you need. Just generally trying to understand what variables people change first and why.

What Caliber are you reloading for?
What distance are you looking to shoot?
If hunting what Game are you looking to chase and get?

A hundred yard deer is completly different than a 500 yd elk, or a 250 yard Coyote or wood chuck/ ground hog.

 

[Txcowboy50]

Lot of good information here. I start by keeping it simple. When reloading a cartridge that is new to me. I search LRH and find what works for members here; maybe 2 different powders and 2 or 3 bullets that have had good results and will work for me. I also look at the recommended seating depth for a particular bullet. Understand every rifle is different and what works great for one may be so-so in another. I will start with the powder I think will work best (or available) and make 5 or 6 in half grain increments load(starting low) for each bullet to be tested until I find a good node or pressure. I found different bullets shoot better with different powder but nearly always find a couple of sweet spot from the 30-40 loads developed using different powder and bullets. You can tweak if from there adjusting charges and seating depth and even different primers.

 

[waveslayer]

Let's summarize this thread, since everyone seems to be repeating the same thing and want their say....

What are you reloading for?
What components are you using?
How did you conduct your ladder test?
What rifle are you using?

Until then we are all repeating ourselves, time to unfollow this thread

 

[Munch]

First, I set a reasonable expectation.
Custom Bolt gun - < 1 MOA at 100 yds
Factory Bolt gun - <1.5 MOA at 100 yds
and so on…..there are some variations to this rule. Custom bolt guns like my PPC are going to get tighter standards.….or other guns that just shoot better get a challenge std.

I think that is about spot on...I think too many shooters today have unreasonable expectations given the price-point for currently mass produced rifles. Seems like today, everyone wants a rifle capable of hitting a cantelope sized object at extreme distances (>1000m). There are plenty of tools out there that can achieve such, but, most of it comes down to the skills of the shooter.

As a general observation, I think the big name, big volume factory guns (Win & Rem) the last 25 years are far less accurate today then ones produced in the pre-90s. Yes, one would think modern CAD/CAM machining would make it more accurate.

Yet, I have found the amount of free bore to be quite a bit excessive today compared to chamber design in the big 2 factory guns pre-90s. This is a very broad characterization based on evaluating over 200 rifles that came across my bench 5-30 years ago. Not a valid statistical sample, thus, just my personal observation; nothing more. I do not think you will find a factory, mass produced rifle stating/advertising "meets SAAMI specifications".

Some well known custom rifle builders/gunsmiths tend to believe the excessive amount of free bore seen today is a result of inexperienced folks getting into reloading, and loading ammunition which exceeds rifle/barrel design parameters. And given today's political/legal gun climate, any reason, no matter how incredulous, potentially opens the manufacturer to a lawsuit.

 

[capod28]

Hi all,

Full disclosure, I have read/watched a fair bit about reloading, but have only done it a few times with the help of experienced family members. So I have some of the concepts down, but lack experience. Bear with me if this is common knowledge. My question is about how you what variables you adjust first when doing load development. Here is what I mean.

Let's say you have chosen a selected bullet that you want to develop a load around for a new rifle. So you're starting from scratch. You choose a powder, seating depth and do your initial load development. You get groups that are roughly around 1" to 1.25" at a 100 yards. Not bad, not great and you want to do better. Let's assume the SD/ES varied as your powder charge increased but was also in the not bad/not great range. In this situation, which of the following would you do?

1. Try a different powder.
2. Fine tune seating depth
3. Experiment with neck tension
4. Something else completely.
Assumptions: Precision and consistency, not ultra high velocity are the primary goals. Hopefully this question makes sense, if not please let me know what additional info you need. Just generally trying to understand what variables people change first and why.

How many shots were in your groups?

 

[Moondoggie]

I am also fairly new to handloading. As mentioned above, I will go with bullet manufacturer data for their most accurate load. 5 shot groups. #1 adjust seating depth #2 adjust powder grains #3 change to a different powder/primer load #4 CHANGE BULLET
Both my long distance rifles prefer one bullet to the next. I am still working up a load for the third.

Am I off here? The OP stated he was working with one bullet. Curious as to why? There are so many quality bullets on the market today that are similar in design but enough of a difference to affect accuracy. Whether it be for punching paper/ringing steel or hunting

 

[chav0_12]

Thanks guys. I'm working with the assumption of not changing bullets unless absolutely necessary. Given that parameter, do most folks change powders if their initial power test of various charge weights doesn't produce the desired results or do they try to fine tune seating depth?

I have a micrometer seating die and access to roughly 4 or 5 powders so either option is possible for my scenario. Just wondering if either is more efficient or if it's dealers choice and everyone has their preference.

Yes, That is usually the first variable I will change. I will try to get a consistent load with a powder with good ES/SD and then adjust seating depth from there. If I can't get a bullet to shoot with the powders that I have I may switch bullets. If I can't get something under an inch or closer to 1/2" with a powder then I'll switch before wasting too many components. That's just always been the way that I will do it. I try to not waste too many bullets or primers if it doesn't look like it's getting anywhere.

 

[chav0_12]

I am also fairly new to handloading. As mentioned above, I will go with bullet manufacturer data for their most accurate load. 5 shot groups. #1 adjust seating depth #2 adjust powder grains #3 change to a different powder/primer load #4 CHANGE BULLET
Both my long distance rifles prefer one bullet to the next. I am still working up a load for the third.

Am I off here? The OP stated he was working with one bullet. Curious as to why? There are so many quality bullets on the market today that are similar in design but enough of a difference to affect accuracy. Whether it be for punching paper/ringing steel or hunting

This is also a good starting point, though I won't limit myself to he manufacturer's data. I will look in my Sierra and Nosler books for accuracy loads for a powder to try based on cartridge and bullet weight only (usually they're all pretty close that it's safe). Then I will go to the manufacturer's book to see start load data and start somewhere in the middle, usually a bit higher than starting loads. Since I'm usually seating the bullets longer than SAAMI length and not jammed this gives some pressure wiggle room.

Sometimes, depending on the cartridge and personal preference there are certain bullets that you just want to use. For me I have a few of those. My 325 WSM shoots 200gr AccuBonds, that was my intention with the rifle. My 28 Nosler was built with the intention of shooting 195gr Berger EOLs. Yes there are a number of good bullets available and IF I can't find a load that performs with the intended bullet, then I will think about trying something else. Short of that, when I buy or build a rifle I usually have a bullet in mind that I want to load and shoot through it. That premise can change, and often has, when the load development doesn't go the way I'd hoped.

 

[Turpentine21]

You can go as deep as you want with reloading. Is it all worth it? Depends on your goals. But what you will notice on all the different forums is certain loads and load ranges for a given caliber will keep surfacing. There are just some known good loads that seem to always shoot well. The old 41.5 of imr 4895 or 42.8 imr4064 with a 168 will almost always be respectable and often lights out. One of those is the Fed. Gold medal clone for 308
My Grendel's have shown repeatable preferences for the common loads though one can be very picky. They like AR Comp in 27.7 and 8208 at 28 grains. Your primer choice may changes things a little.
The Quickload data I requested for 6.5-06 the other day with my exact specs were so close to my chronograph numbers and field data it was spooky. 6.5-06 is one of those calibers that the manuals data looks quite anemic but it has to because you have some older rifles and some 256 Newtons around that may not hold up to modern loads. The 6.5 Swede is the same way because of all the older guns still in circulation.
I haven't read all the posts but if you let us know what you have I'll bet we can get you real close. BUT, Always start low and work up!