Nice video on measured energy transfer

[RockyMtnMT]

We just finished testing some new bullets in Clear Ballistics 10% gel. We got successful results. I don't trust them. We have seen successful results in test media before and fortunately had deprivation cow tags at the same time and used the new bullet (at that time) to go and shoot some elk. The results were terrible and we did not market the bullet. I am so thankful that we had the opportunity to test on animals, because had we not, we would have marketed the bullet and had poor performance on game by customers. This would have been a nail in our coffin as a new business. We had not planned to use this current new design on our upcoming trip to Africa next month, but now are in scramble mode to get new loads developed and spot on drops to do testing on animals that we simply can't do here. There is no substitute for animal testing. Gel is a great visual, and if it doesn't work in gel, then it certainly won't work in an animal.

I also agree that putting bones and hides in the gel does not help with the testing. It takes a live animal with blood pressure. Same dead animal lacking blood pressure will give different results than when it was alive. Expiration time is what can not be determined in media testing.

 

[Bob Wright]

I think it's blood loss number 1. A knock out punch to the brain from a well placed shot in the chest cavity is hard to prove and impossible to predict reliably. Some animals are DRT, some run a long way with the same general shot.
It makes a great campfire discussion, that no one is going to win and science isn't conclusive, except blood loss to the brain is the final arbiter.

 

[xsn10s]

You pop the apricot and it's done no matter what it is. It might spasm but the game is over.

 

[FEENIX]

I think it's blood loss number 1. A knock out punch to the brain from a well placed shot in the chest cavity is hard to prove and impossible to predict reliably. Some animals are DRT, some run a long way with the same general shot.
It makes a great campfire discussion, that no one is going to win and science isn't conclusive, except blood loss to the brain is the final arbiter.

The video shows the reality of the transfer of energy and is conclusive. How it relates to hunting is another story because the transfer of energy is only one of the attributes; whether people understand/accept it or not, it is there. Shot placement, design/construction of the bullet, and how the game expires are another phenomenon.

 

[xsn10s]

Berger tested on animals as do the as well as gel. So do other manufacturers. It's common practice and a widely accepted practice when taken into context.

 

[Daniel75]

What an amazing video, thanks for sharing. I'm with some of the others here about under penetration and dumping all of that energy inside the animal and no exit wound for 2 holes to leak blood instead of just one. Lots of different factors in all this.

 

[Bob Wright]

The video shows the reality of the transfer of energy and is conclusive. How it relates to hunting is another story because the transfer of energy is only one of the attributes; whether people understand/accept it or not, it is there. Shot placement, design/construction of the bullet, and how the game expires are another phenomenon.

My counter point is gel blocks are not lung tissue. Lungs have air, capillaries, veins and lung tissue.
I can blow up gallon water jugs violently with most bullets. But those also are not lungs. They are essentially the same as gel.
Even slow motion video of animals struck by a bullet does not produce a violent swelling of the chest, gut cavity like gel blocks. Certainly, internal lacerations of everything around the bullet path, some hydraulic force (in a blood, lung tissue, air medium), depending on bullet construction and how it reshapes or comes apart. Or, just passes thru....
Gel blocks are a visual tool for designers. I get that. But the resistance of living lung tissue vs water is not 1:1.

 

[FEENIX]

My counter point is gel blocks are not lung tissue. Lungs have air, capillaries, veins and lung tissue.
I can blow up gallon water jugs violently with most bullets. But those also are not lungs. They are essentially the same as gel.
Even slow motion video of animals struck by a bullet does not produce a violent swelling of the chest, gut cavity like gel blocks. Certainly, internal lacerations of everything around the bullet path, some hydraulic force (in a blood, lung tissue, air medium), depending on bullet construction and how it reshapes or comes apart. Or, just passes thru....
Gel blocks are a visual tool for designers. I get that. But the resistance of living lung tissue vs water is not 1:1.

No one is saying they are the same, but whoever concocted it is closest to meeting the FBI's test requirements. It has become a standard for bullet/ammo manufacturers and independent testers to establish their baseline knowledge. If you can measure energy transfer with water jugs as clearly as the gel, then have at it. However, I do not know any bullet/ammo manufacturers that use water jugs to test their bullets anymore. I posted the video because it is the only one they showed the transfer of energy calculation. Again, whether anyone believes it or not, it is there.

 

[esorensen]

Connect your centerfire bullet of choice with a prairie dog and you will see a direct comparison to gel block expansion. A few years back, I shot a coyote facing me at just under 200y with a 208 AMAX from a .308 with the MV around 2650 if I remember. The bullet did not exit the coyote, and the chest wound left a stellate pattern. The explanation for this type of wound is from the hydraulic forces inside the chest cavity creating dramatic expansion. This rapid expansion left tears to the weakened skin radiating away from the bullet hole. Tissue and animals DO expand, just not at the level of what we see in gel. I'll post the pic if I can find it. Wound ballistics is a fascinating topic; gel is just a small piece of a much larger puzzle. Taken in context, gel is useful information. However it will never fully equate to terminal performance gospel.

 

[MW204]

While it is true it is not a perfect test; it is an established baseline by the FBI to build upon a knowledge base and reference.



It is because they are programmed to do so. The survivors will drag their dead into their holes because they eat their kind.

While I will not compare myself to the fbi and their testing I have done a lot of testing of different 45acp bullets, but remember this the fbi has changed guns and bullets over the years like I change my underwear, not exactly a good example but you get the idea. btw they're not the only large agency to do so, so I'm not just busting on them.
While this video explains what happens inside the human body we all know that bear defenders take a lot of gun with them to defend against a bear or to hunt it, and a lot of those guys use hardcast bullets to get deep penetration.
As far as pistol ammo goes I have not found any that stood up to the Speer Gold Dot 45acp in 230 gr. (I'm only talking about 45acp) Through all the test barriers I shot this bullet through I only had it plug up once through 3 - 2"x4" that were spaced 4" apart, the other 4 or 5 brands I tested failed all the time. With that said it's been years since I've done another test as I did back then but for me, I'm still sold on the Speer Gold Dot 45acp 230 gr bullet.
This is a recovered bullet out of a water jug but all the bullets I recovered out of the barriers I shot them through looked just like this except for the one that plugged up with wood. I shot another one through the same board in a different place and it opened up, again all others failed most of the tests this bullet performed in. I don't know what else you could ask out of any pistol bullet for self defense.
A little off topic but it's worth your time to test some of these if you get your hands on a few of them.

 

[MW204]

Connect your centerfire bullet of choice with a prairie dog and you will see a direct comparison to gel block expansion. A few years back, I shot a coyote facing me at just under 200y with a 208 AMAX from a .308 with the MV around 2650 if I remember. The bullet did not exit the coyote, and the chest wound left a stellate pattern. The explanation for this type of wound is from the hydraulic forces inside the chest cavity creating dramatic expansion. This rapid expansion left tears to the weakened skin radiating away from the bullet hole. Tissue and animals DO expand, just not at the level of what we see in gel. I'll post the pic if I can find it. Wound ballistics is a fascinating topic; gel is just a small piece of a much larger puzzle. Taken in context, gel is useful information. However it will never fully equate to terminal performance gospel.

When they test with gel I have often wondered why they don't put a hunk of bone in it somewhere around the depth that the animal someone may be hunting to get a better idea of what a bullet would do after passing through the bone.

Disregard, I just finished reading all the comments it seems this has been answered.

 

[Chuckrub]

Just a we bit of energy transfer.