Newbie reloader question, type s match fl bushing vs master hunter die

[338 dude]

Yes sir I see your point I'm not going to br shooting
I just like to play with my rifles I don't have any factory rifles that I shoot anymore just custom and I don't shoot pass 600 yds to kill but I have a 1000 yd target
Every so often I get a flyer out of a five shot group that I can't explain it's not way off But that's why I going down the rabbit hole
I see what you are saying about try one thing at a time

Another thing that is easy to do and won't cost anything but your time is to measure the bearing surface of your bullets a longer bearing surface will create more friction And slightly change velocity when you start measuring a box of bullets you may be surprised to see how much they vary

 

[LongBomber]

You can make very consistent ammunition with either type of die, reloading is as much about doing a consistent process to reach an end result that is the same every time.
I have several sets of both the fl die size die and bushing neck and fl dies. With proper setup you can turn out very consistent cases from a regular fl die. But there is the expander through the neck to control, ensuring the neck and expander are lubed the same every time seems to make a difference of 1-2 thou on neck concentricity.
I run a carbide button in a standard fl die for a couple rifles, with good reloading habits You can produce cases with very little runout. I also like the micrometer top on the seating die, to me the comp seating die is worth the extra $$.

 

[sturner]

Shawn I hope you don't take offense to me hijacking your thread it wasn't my intention however this is good information to what you are asking about and it's better than the info I was dealing out

 

[milo-2]

Yes sir I see your point I'm not going to br shooting
I just like to play with my rifles I don't have any factory rifles that I shoot anymore just custom and I don't shoot pass 600 yds to kill but I have a 1000 yd target
Every so often I get a flyer out of a five shot group that I can't explain it's not way off But that's why I going down the rabbit hole
I see what you are saying about try one thing at a time

I think each and every one of us have been down the flier road, they are tough. How do you isolate a flier at 1K, given the distance between you and the target? From fundamentals, trigger pull, to a slight change in environmental changes not picked up.
Do you ever cull rds when seating that just feel off, bullet seats hard, bullet seems like it is coated with butter and you could have pushed it in with your finger? These to me are my problematic rds, and I separate them, shoot them at closer distances. I anneal each firing, and from over 8 full yrs of doing so, one thing I have learned, not every pc of brass, even from the same lot has the same composition, so no matter what route you take, unless you kick these brass from your rotation, they are always there.

 

[sturner]

No the flyer is at 100 and 300 if it was at a grand I would think it was me and when I load I separate into groups according to feel
I do anneal but not every time I don't have one but a buddy does

 

[epoletna]

Going back to the OP's original questions, my thoughts are:

First, regarding your choice of Type S bushing dies or the standard dies, there's no particular reason NOT to use bushing dies, but if you're not turning your necks you probably don't need them. And if you get bushing dies, you'll probably end up having to buy 3-4 different diameter bushings so you know what size your brass likes. I have a couple of bench rest rifles with tight necks, and I obviously need to use bushing dies for them. But I also need to turn the necks before using them. For the type of shooting you're doing, even with occasional shots out to 1000 yards, I sorta doubt you need to do that kind of reloading. Doesn't hurt to use bushing dies, but probably doesn't noticeably improve your groups.

Secondly, don't crimp your necks unless you're shooting cartridges in a tubular magazine. If your bullets are not being held by the neck tension of resized brass, you need to check the necks to see if they are too thin. It is possible you could salvage those shells by using a tighter bushing, but it sounds like you need to cull those pieces of brass. Now if EVERY bullet you seat slips into the neck with little or no friction, you need to take a look at the resizing button of your resizing die.

Hope this helps.

 

[milo-2]

No the flyer is at 100 and 300 if it was at a grand I would think it was me and when I load I separate into groups according to feel
I do anneal but not every time I don't have one but a buddy does

Isn't group shooting an adventure, lol
I hope you or anyone else does not think what I say I am declaring as fact, some basics are indeed, and some common sense thoughts need to apply also. When I give advice, I am giving advice on what has and does work for me, and it is across the coarse results, not a one or two time success with a chest thump.

 

[sturner]

Isn't group shooting an adventure, lol
I hope you or anyone else does not think what I say I am declaring as fact, some basics are indeed, and some common sense thoughts need to apply also. When I give advice, I am giving advice on what has and does work for me, and it is across the coarse results, not a one or two time success with a chest thump.

I read enough your post I think I know where you are coming from
Yeah after all these years I'm still learning new things
And I like chasing a group
My friends don't reload I do it for them they like to shoot reloads but don't like the process it takes that's why I joined this site so I could talk to folks who got experience with what I'm trying to do
I do appreciate the input from everyone on this thread

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

im gonna be the other guy for a minute just for conversation sake

turning can sometimes bring brass back into the line up too ( like weight sorting and hard seating pressure ) , and turning while using a standard full length sizer can alleviate some inconsistencies that the standard fl sizer will do to your brass ... if your measurements such as fired , sized with bushing & sized without bushing all make sense to do so. you can do the same thing without bushing die and bushings

what make a standard full length sizer not the best type of die is that it works the brass so much. which creates run out . plus the expander mandrel can pull up the shoulder ... what i have noticed is that turning down the neck thickness ( without overdoing it ) will make the same die move the brass less by not out sizing and in sizing the neck so much (( you will feel sizing pressure difference )) ... now you will get 2 benefits of the expander mandrel pulling through the neck , 1. the neck will be inline with the expander mandrel and have less chance of it creating runout by not starting the expand with the stem having on an out of axis bind ( if that makes sense ) 2. neck thickness is less and equal from case to case so it pulls the expander through easier and the same from case to case and decreases the likelihood of pulling the shoulder up

just some thoughts

 

[shawn mcjunkin]

Shawn I hope you don't take offense to me hijacking your thread it wasn't my intention however this is good information to what you are asking about and it's better than the info I was dealing out

None at all the input also give other things to keep in mind. I'm getting info none the less

 

[WildRose]

You can do whatever you want here, I see you are 34 yrs into this fun like me, and it is great to experiment and learn.
But before you go full re Tard, for lack of a term, document what you have for each rifle you expect better results from, from numbers on brass to group size. Guys may turn for consistent neck tension, but also for concentricity, do you know your numbers here?
Some chambers may not benefit from doing extra work. IMO, a guy needs to weigh out the pct of gains that the effort provided. <By saying that, I understand we all have our own desired level of accuracy that we can live with.
You mention a desire to go to bushing dies, do that first and quantify any gains, then add neck turning and do the same, By changing 4 things at once you never learn where the biggest gains were made.
I hope I am making sense here. I myself have taken a few trips down rabbit holes looking for gold, from neck turning, which now you will own a mandrel system too, which itself offers another realm of possibilities, to seating on an arbor press with a gauge to measure seat force. For me personally, after all this dicking around, it is just as easy to buy a quality action, a premium barrel, have it chambered correctly, use premium brass and components, and pay my dues with load development, than spend countless hours doing brass chores that may or may not yield meaningful results for my style of shooting.
NOW, if I was to enter the BR or F Class game, I would retract everything I just said.

Anything you do to improve neck tension consistency and concentricity/bore alignment is going to pay dividends in accuracy.

I've never done anything that has had as much an effect on reducing ES.

 

[shawn mcjunkin]

Going back to the OP's original questions, my thoughts are:

First, regarding your choice of Type S bushing dies or the standard dies, there's no particular reason NOT to use bushing dies, but if you're not turning your necks you probably don't need them. And if you get bushing dies, you'll probably end up having to buy 3-4 different diameter bushings so you know what size your brass likes. I have a couple of bench rest rifles with tight necks, and I obviously need to use bushing dies for them. But I also need to turn the necks before using them. For the type of shooting you're doing, even with occasional shots out to 1000 yards, I sorta doubt you need to do that kind of reloading. Doesn't hurt to use bushing dies, but probably doesn't noticeably improve your groups.

Secondly, don't crimp your necks unless you're shooting cartridges in a tubular magazine. If your bullets are not being held by the neck tension of resized brass, you need to check the necks to see if they are too thin. It is possible you could salvage those shells by using a tighter bushing, but it sounds like you need to cull those pieces of brass. Now if EVERY bullet you seat slips into the neck with little or no friction, you need to take a look at the resizing button of your resizing die.

Hope this helps.

Thanks it was helpful appreciated the feedback

 

[WildRose]

Yes sir I see your point I'm not going to br shooting
I just like to play with my rifles I don't have any factory rifles that I shoot anymore just custom and I don't shoot pass 600 yds to kill but I have a 1000 yd target
Every so often I get a flyer out of a five shot group that I can't explain it's not way off But that's why I going down the rabbit hole
I see what you are saying about try one thing at a time

Are you chronographing your loads? What kind of ES have you got?

I've found that even at moderate ranges an ES of more than 20fps is going to have a noticeable effect. The further you push out the more critical that becomes.

 

[KeithF]

Bushing, gives you so many options with tension. Experiment with it. You'll find some cartridges want more than the usual .002-.003.