Newbie reloader question, type s match fl bushing vs master hunter die

[shawn mcjunkin]

G

I use both the master hunter and bushings dies
I just started with the bushing dies just to see if they make a difference or not really haven't noticed any
And crimping with either one will damage the sitting dies if you aren't using knurled Bullets
And you can bump shoulder back with both

.
Thanks. Nice to know how they compare in quality

 

[sturner]

One thing I have noticed for myself especially, and from friends, not too many guys who use bushing dies go back to a reg die. Where I have seen guys add a bushing die to existing sets of dies.
Now there are instances where reg sizing dies rule, but I loathe pulling an expander ball back through a neck.
Lose the misconception about the reg die overworking a couple pcs of brass setting the die up, just pull the guts out of the die till it is set, then put it back in, run that pc in far enough to expand it. Plus, I am sure someone will attempt to flame me, you talk of pushing inconsistencies to the outside with the expander, does seating a bullet not do the same thing?
And don't let someone tell you one size neck tension fits all. Quick story, 3 of chambered 6 XC's, all were expensive components. All Norma brass, we kinda did load dev together, or conferred with each other. We were all hung up with rifles that shot in the mid .3"s, I finally stepped down to a .267 bushing, others followed and now our guns were shooting in the high 0''s, low .1's.
It pays to experiment.

How much neck tension did you go with

 

[milo-2]

How much neck tension did you go with

You had to ask, lol. It is rare I measure necks with seated bullets, mostly because I go off felt seating force and testing. It sounds stupid, but numbers coming from a caliper here mean nothing to me. Over the yrs, I have taken readings and my bushings take the outside dia of brass to the number stamped on the bushing. I culled bushings to get where I am today.
I do recall, we started with a .269" bushing, we added tension to new brass after a chamfer, seating a bullet in new brass felt like throwing a hot dog down a hallway. The XC phase was 2 yrs ago, I am sure a .268" was given an opportunity, I do not keep notes, ever. I remember the basics.
The bullet we were using here was a 110 Sierra, but I remember my first XC I shot 105 hybrids(moly'd) and did not use near the neck tension to make it work. Was it brass composition, or bullet dia, characteristics of the bullet, that I do not know.

 

[sturner]

Ok I get it that's why I'm try bushings because of the feel some where loose and some are tight so I'm trying to get them to the same feel
I got a 22/250 that shoot in the .2 s and I want less
Thanks for the input it does help me get to where I need to go

 

[338 dude]

I know people will think I'm an idiot but asking this anyway. Looking for anyone that has used these dies and can help me. I am getting ready to purchase dies, and I have decided to use the redding dies. I am a hunter, but I do like to practice longer shots and have a range to 800yrds. I am choosing between 2 die sets. The type S match bushing FL die set or the master hunter 2 die set for 28nos, 25-06, a 270 win. The debate is I like the idea of being able to set a chosen neck tension, and being able to fl size and bump shoulder with out continuously working the neck or even touching it if want to make modified cases. If the expander is removed, I can just use the bushing to set the neck size by .001 increments based on bushing decreasing the work on the brass neck. The only issue with that is that if any imperfections are in the brass, it will be left inside and may cause inaccuracy issues when seating bullet. The master hunter series will do the job, but the hang up is that when trying to adjust to get a correct shoulder bump that piece of brass is worked multiple time decreasing the life. Both of these sets have the same seater so that's not an issue.

Random question. Reading several different articles(i don't believe everything i read) some say crimp, some say no need to crimp on bolt action rounds because the neck tension will do the job. Do any of these rounds require crimping since these dies do not do this. I don't know.
Thanks in advance for advice, remember someone explained things to you before you became guru's (ha ha)!

Definitely not a guru but I would prefer the Redding dies I do not use an expanding ball rather an expanding mandrel and no crimp just my two cents

 

[WildRose]

I use both the master hunter and bushings dies
I just started with the bushing dies just to see if they make a difference or not really haven't noticed any
And crimping with either one will damage the sitting dies if you aren't using knurled Bullets
And you can bump shoulder back with both

How are you going to damage the seating dies when the crimp is applied with a separate crimping die after the bullet is seated?

 

[WildRose]

Ok I get it that's why I'm try bushings because of the feel some where loose and some are tight so I'm trying to get them to the same feel
I got a 22/250 that shoot in the .2 s and I want less
Thanks for the input it does help me get to where I need to go

If you're getting inconsistent neck tension you probably need to mic your necks to see how much variation you have in thickness. Might be time for some neck turning.

I've had some significant variations in neck thickness over the years even in the same lot of brass.

 

[sturner]

How are you going to damage the seating dies when the crimp is applied with a separate crimping die after the bullet is seated?

You can't

 

[sturner]

If you're getting inconsistent neck tension you probably need to mic your necks to see how much variation you have in thickness. Might be time for some neck turning.

I've had some significant variations in neck thickness over the years even in the same lot of brass.

Never used a crimping die or trued my necks all mine less than a .75 down to .25 but I will check that may tighten them up some more
Thanks

 

[WildRose]

Never used a crimping die or trued my necks all mine less than a .75 down to .25 but I will check that may tighten them up some more
Thanks

Look at the RCBS neck turning tool and the Lee Crimping dies.

I thought I was alone in this till we got a thread going in the reloading section and lo and behold quite a few other guys had great success with it as well.

Neck turning can also help you with concentricity/bore alignment.

Generally with mass produced factory chambers it's not an issue because the mass manufacturers have to allow extra tolerance for all of the different factory ammo out there but customs tend to have much tighter tolerances unless you specifically ask for a "no turn neck" when specking out your custom.

When you start paying attention you'll also find that neck thickness can be very inconsistent and seems to get worse with multiple reloadings as you work and rework the brass.

I was really surprised when I started paying attention to my necks to find that often there's a good bit of variation with one side thicker than the other etc.

 

[338 dude]

Never used a crimping die or trued my necks all mine less than a .75 down to .25 but I will check that may tighten them up some more
Thanks

I use the Hornaday neck turning tool and had good luck with it when you start turning necks and see how much they are out you'll be surprised I clean up about 75% it was shocking to see how much neck was cut and then it'll skip over a spot

 

[sturner]

Started reloading in 85 we just weren't happy with factory loads for factory rifles for hunting just the basic reloading equipment now it's custom rifles and the best reloading equipment
Just started paying attention to neck tension now I'm getting on Brownells to get neck turning stuff and a lee crimp die
I hope the OP is paying attention
Thanks guys

 

[milo-2]

Started reloading in 85 we just weren't happy with factory loads for factory rifles for hunting just the basic reloading equipment now it's custom rifles and the best reloading equipment
Just started paying attention to neck tension now I'm getting on Brownells to get neck turning stuff and a lee crimp die
I hope the OP is paying attention
Thanks guys

You can do whatever you want here, I see you are 34 yrs into this fun like me, and it is great to experiment and learn.
But before you go full re Tard, for lack of a term, document what you have for each rifle you expect better results from, from numbers on brass to group size. Guys may turn for consistent neck tension, but also for concentricity, do you know your numbers here?
Some chambers may not benefit from doing extra work. IMO, a guy needs to weigh out the pct of gains that the effort provided. <By saying that, I understand we all have our own desired level of accuracy that we can live with.
You mention a desire to go to bushing dies, do that first and quantify any gains, then add neck turning and do the same, By changing 4 things at once you never learn where the biggest gains were made.
I hope I am making sense here. I myself have taken a few trips down rabbit holes looking for gold, from neck turning, which now you will own a mandrel system too, which itself offers another realm of possibilities, to seating on an arbor press with a gauge to measure seat force. For me personally, after all this dicking around, it is just as easy to buy a quality action, a premium barrel, have it chambered correctly, use premium brass and components, and pay my dues with load development, than spend countless hours doing brass chores that may or may not yield meaningful results for my style of shooting.
NOW, if I was to enter the BR or F Class game, I would retract everything I just said.

 

[sturner]

Yes sir I see your point I'm not going to br shooting
I just like to play with my rifles I don't have any factory rifles that I shoot anymore just custom and I don't shoot pass 600 yds to kill but I have a 1000 yd target
Every so often I get a flyer out of a five shot group that I can't explain it's not way off But that's why I going down the rabbit hole
I see what you are saying about try one thing at a time