New old .25 cal wildcat

[Calvin45]

Preferred Rifle Barrels out of Utah will make a 7.5 if you are willing to go button in 4-6 weeks. Mine, on a .25-06 AI is SWEET. Loves the 133 Berger and (cringe) R-25.

What is cringey about rl25? I love it!

 

[ButterBean]

The .264 Win Mag was known as a barrel burner from its inception. A .25cal version will be much more so. The trick is to spend very little time doing load work up, and puts the pressure on the designer to produce a load that performs to expectations QUICKLY.

Barrels are cheap, Let Her Eat

 

[ButterBean]

What is cringey about rl25? I love it!

Me too

 

[Mike Matteson]

The logic adds up!

At this rate of case acquisition yall be ordering your replacement barrel after you burn the first one out, and be ready to go with a mountain of once-fired brass

If you think that I am going to shoot all the brass once and start back again. Think again. I am going as far as having another action set up to change out barrels from 6mm to .257 calibers. To Fireform the cases. So that will cut down on the barrel burning. I already have a 2nd barrel for the 6mm/280AI rifle. I didn't on the 25/280AI because I change barrel weights. So I am not sure if it's going to work? Have to wait and see. I have two boys that will gladly pickup where I leavt off at. It's been hell just to get 280AI case to start with.

 

[Mike Matteson]

The .264 Win Mag was known as a barrel burner from its inception. A .25cal version will be much more so. The trick is to spend very little time doing load work up, and puts the pressure on the designer to produce a load that performs to expectations QUICKLY.

Presently I am the hair brain designer that having this chambering built. I have a 264 WM also. That doesn't worry me.

 

[ButterBean]

The .264 Win Mag was known as a barrel burner from its inception. A .25cal version will be much more so. The trick is to spend very little time doing load work up, and puts the pressure on the designer to produce a load that performs to expectations QUICKLY.

They are all barrel burners, it just goes with the territory, sure you burn a 220 swift out in a day same but that would be the trigger man's fault not the gun.
The thought of how long a tube will last has never crossed my mind…….ever, in the broad scheme of what 99% are doing a new tube and chamber job is cheap

 

[Mike Matteson]

They are all barrel burners, it just goes with the territory, sure you burn a 220 swift out in a day same but that would be the trigger man's fault not the gun.
The thought of how long a tube will last has never crossed my mind…….ever, in the broad scheme of what 99% are doing a new tube and chamber job is cheap

Got that right, on burning out a 220 swift barrel in a day. I have 220 swilt and have used it for years. Still shot straight.

 

[.300 Dakota]

Tooling arrived yesterday from Manson right exactly when they told me it would 4 months ago. I went with a #4 contour, so I'll have to find a stock with a skinnier barrel channel. Have a guy locally that can cut the chamber and fit to my action.

 

[del2les]

So with the assistance of the folks at Manson Precision today, I re-invented the wheel. Many would argue that the .257 Weatherby is a tack driver and suitable for running the 133 grain Berger Elite hunting bullet given the appropriate twist. In my experience, it has been quite finicky, due to the excessive freebore, not allowing one to reach the lands, and the proposition of rolling the dice in hopes that what was produced would love the long Berger offering wasn't appealing. Eager to make a high-performance round with low recoil and having another half dozen projects currently running, I gave quite a bit of thought to a design. I could not afford at the time of this writing to buy another aftermarket action with all the trimmings and pay to have the Gunsmith Fairy whack the pile with his golden hammer and turn it into a long range tack-driver. I prefer to neck up, not down. The count of the number of specialty dies/tools and hours needed for the latter is high if you want a nice, straight case to load. Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything suitable with a magnum case head meant for a long action to neck up and remain under 30 caliber. (I have a fully blue printed and sleeved Remington 700 action available with all the internals replaced, oversized and ground lug and TriggerTeck Special 2-stage trigger set at 8 and 12oz.) To complicate matters, the .277 and .257 cal bores are only available in 1:10 twist, if at all, without special ordering. I was all set to give in to the necking down process and decrease a .308 Norma Mag to 7mm. It is shorter than the .300 Win case, which would give better magazine well clearance with the longer 195gr EOLs. I have 120 Norma cases onhand, and I figured I better get more. They were available a year ago, but no longer. No sense in building a wildcat that you may bever be able to get brass for ever! I have plenty of 6.5x300 Wby brass, but the case is too long and would need to be run in a longer aftermarket action. The 300 PRC was a strong contender for a wildcat. A 7/300 PRC wasn't a bad idea, and it's been done numerous times, so there might be some data. I kept that clicker issue running through my mind, though.

Finally I decided to look to see what was available as far as brass. I found a cache of .264 Win Mag, but realized necking up would be pointless unless I wanted to shoot only up to 150 grain bullets in a .27 bore. And besides, the neck is way too short on the 264 for anything larger and longer. Necking down however, was an intriguing proposition. The neck length is perfect for the quarterbore; better suited than for the .264, in fact. The 800lb gorilla in the room was the 257 Weatherby Magnum. It holds 80.4 grains of water and operates at 62, 500psi max avg. pressure with .378" of freebore. So much freebore, that the caryridge is notoriously finicky, and I personally have not been able to find a tack-driving load in a couple of iterations of the cartridge - admittedly neither being a Mark V. I considered the price difference of brass - I bought 50 264 cases for only about 25% more than I would have paid for 20 257 Wby cases. Also I thought about rapid cycling in a long cartridge with double radiused shoulder vs one with a 25-degree shoulder in a push feed action. It doesn't seem to bother the Mark Vs or the Howas so chambered, but 1) The original Weatherby action was a Mauser CRF type, if I'm not mistaken, produced in Germany (perhaps they have specially designed feed ramps that a 700 might not have?), and 2) My cartridge will have a much longer pointy bullet nose protruding out a good bit. This still may be a single feed proposition when all is said and done. The .264 holds 80.7 grains of water, but has little freebore by comparison.

So it was decided, and the moment was seized. A call to Manson Precision yielded the production of a reamer for the .250 MDC. The numerical bore diameter is used to help distinguish it from others in the quarterbore genre, as only the .250 Savage carries this designation, to my knowledge, while multiple cartridges use both .25 and .257. The M is the Roman Numeral translating from Latin to "mille," which is an adjective representing a quantity of 1000. This is the point in yards where the bullet will fall below the 1000 ft-lbs of energy threshold that has been recognized for years as the minimum level of energy needed to cleanly harvest deer. So it can be viewed as both max range for deer and minimum energy range. The DC stands for Deer Cartridge. I have a small series of DCs running currently. Others are based on short action, non-magnum rounds.

The 264 Win operates at a slightly higher max avg. pressure than the .257 Wby (64,000). Freebore of the new design is, you guessed it, 1/4 (.250"). This is both significantly less than the .257 Wby for better consistent accuracy, and significantly more than the .264 Win parent chamber to allow higher velocity at lower pressures.

I have ordered enough norma brass and Berger 133gr Elite Hunters (under $60/100 compared to larger caliber high BC bullets) to last, and will have the tooling by mid-June. A smith is lined up to switch barrels on my currently unused .338 Edge, and a 28" Brux barrel blank is on the way in 7.5 Twist and will finish at 27". I will swap the current HS Precision stock for an AG Composites. Many will cringe when I state the contour of the barrel is only #4, but I DETEST weight. That's why the 1/2 MOA Edge is being rebuilt. It will make the rifle more finicky, most likely, but I am confident, since I've never had a Brux barrel fail to produce at least 1/2" accuracy. It should be ready by August. I cannot argue that all one would need to to have an equally good round is resuce freebore on the available Weatherby offering by about 1/3, but I can argue the price of brass. Either way, new tooling and a new rifle would need to be built.

Sounds very similar to the 257-7RM I played with decades ago, except I did not have the faster twist and the more modern powders and bullets at the time. Since I did not like the double radius shoulder of the Bee and there was plenty of once fired 7RM brass all around, it was so logical.

Keep us informed on its performance.

 

[Mike Matteson]

I had considered "Shermanizing" a .25-06 case or necking down the .280AI that has factory brass. I detest fire forming/wasting components, and even considered just dropping to .27 caliber with the SAAMI cases. However, I remembered that this would require a long action, which cannot be found currently unless you buy a factory action or pick up an Origin and change the bolt head, since magnum is the only way I've found them coming. I was locked into the long action magnum, which couldn't be excessively long. I may end up running out of mag space with the factory box, but I do love the traditional BDL bottom metal! I've shot a .25-06 AI before, and it did add a considerable velocity increase to the standard version. I have a short-barreled Roberts now that I'm trying to get to shoot. I've had a custom 250 Savage and a couple 25-06s over the years, as well as a couple of 257 Wbys and one .25 WSSM. I have a customized .25 Creedmoor reamer that I've never used, but it is designed for a 10-twist short-throated variant. The one 25 SAUM wildcat was my favorite. Reducing bore size seems to mitigate recoil, all else being equal. I should be able to use starting .257 Wby loads as a safe beginning point. It will be a barrel burner extraordinaire!

I am just now getting my little 6.5GT project going with the help of a local smith friend. 3 jobs and taking care of an elderly parent preclude much in the way of discovery and range time.

What get me started on 280AI case necked down to either 6mm, or .257/280AI being built now. The 280AI case is about .1 longer to the shoulder than any other AI case. More powder, but not sure where this is going to lead too, but I am looking forward to see what I can come up with. I had gotten use 700 LA to use. Found in pond shops. A,B,C in the serial number are find to convert. Beyond that serial letter not so good. The other is I can get 280AI cases ready made, but have to size the necks.
I never had a 6mm, and wasn't impress with the 243 or 6mm. I wanted something with higher velocity. I am sorry to say I believer in veloctiy. With movement toward all copper bullets and the Hammer design bullets was a major step forward. I had used some barnes a great many years ago. Found to be hard to drive and didn't group very good. Groupinf was about 1" @ 100yds. To wide for me. If I can get a bullet to group closer to or under 1/2" @ 100yds, I am not interested in them. I did back then and now work with powder, primers, and all the other parts to but together a hunting load. The other was I want to extend my range out to 700yds+ or so. 500yds has been my max before.
Necking the case down to 6mm or 257 isn't a real problem. Just have to step the bushing down in steps. 4 steps for 6mm.
I do things a little different. I cut my brand new cases to all the same length first. The Peterson cases I have found varied several thousands from one case to the next. Then cut the necks for thickness. Then start my stepping my case necks down. I going to anneal after the 2nd down sizing.
Fire-forming cases have to be done anyway. So there no way around it. I am setting up a dumby action to do my fire-forming. I got or getting one barrel, and still looking for a .257 barrel that will match up to a Rem700 action. The barrel can be wore out. I am going to rechamber the barrel for my dummy action. That after I brake in the new barrel in either of the rifles.

 

[Mike Matteson]

They are all barrel burners, it just goes with the territory, sure you burn a 220 swift out in a day same but that would be the trigger man's fault not the gun.
The thought of how long a tube will last has never crossed my mind…….ever, in the broad scheme of what 99% are doing a new tube and chamber job is cheap

Barrels can be hard to come by. The 6mm/280AI I did order out a 2nd 6mm blanks barrel to start with. The .25 cal barrel I am still waiting for. This time I only order out one. All are 1-7 twist rate for all copper bullets. The only reason for that is I don't know just what length I may want to use. So I am starting with a 28" to be cut back to 26". My 6mm barrels is a 32" barrel. So the wait time can be very long. Other than that yes all cartridges are barrel burners. That I agree with. Once your barrel is broken in, why you need to continue to fire-form your cases. So I guess that if it takes up to 3 or so firing to completely fire-form case. I feel you are long way into burning out your barrel by the time you a have a fair amount of fire-form cases. So my feeling is set up a dummy action to do your fire-forming. The smith can set it up to change out the barrels for different chamber, just have to tork the barrel properly.

 

[ButterBean]

Barrels can be hard to come by. The 6mm/280AI I did order out a 2nd 6mm blanks barrel to start with. The .25 cal barrel I am still waiting for. This time I only order out one. All are 1-7 twist rate for all copper bullets. The only reason for that is I don't know just what length I may want to use. So I am starting with a 28" to be cut back to 26". My 6mm barrels is a 32" barrel. So the wait time can be very long. Other than that yes all cartridges are barrel burners. That I agree with. Once your barrel is broken in, why you need to continue to fire-form your cases. So I guess that if it takes up to 3 or so firing to completely fire-form case. I feel you are long way into burning out your barrel by the time you a have a fair amount of fire-form cases. So my feeling is set up a dummy action to do your fire-forming. The smith can set it up to change out the barrels for different chamber, just have to tork the barrel properly.

I've personally never had any of those issues

 

[HunterMann]

It's a rimed case that can be made from 30-40 Krag, 303 British or 30-30 Win.

Hoping to find some Krag brass. Coming up empty so far. Hitting big gun show next weekend.

This will be a rare occasion for me using fired cases, normally don't touch them.

I scored on a bunch of 30-30 cases at the last local gun show. You know we never kept all the ones we shot over the years. Never thought we would need to. 303 Brit and 30/40 Krag are getting harder to find and costly. I did get 50 Hornady 30/40 Krag cases last year from Midway last for a friend's project. The buck a case didn't kill me because I was spending his money! I decided it was better to shell out for the new cases than pay $$ for some very questionable looking and vintage ammo. Keep looking and good luck finding some cases. I also saw some 25 caliber rounds on the 30-30 case. They looked interesting and well designed. I guess they are collectable, because each one was in it's own plastic box and priced at $20.

 

[AkleyFan]

I have just started a 25/280AI set up. Actions, barrel and reamer order. I have Peterson 280AI cases 500 count. Getting ready to order out more cases. That way I have a lot of cases.

Mike - do you have a post going for this build? If not, please consider doing one, I'd like to follow along. I may build a 25-280AI lafter I finish the 6.5-280AI that I have going on a Mauser action.