New Mexico bans the use of scopes

[CMP70306]

Muzzle loader hunter: we need a special season like bows for our primitive equipment.

State game boards: OK here's a premium week after bow before rifle.

Muzzle loader hunter 20 years later: here is my carbon stocked wonder gun that shots smokeless from rifle primers, with low drag jacketed bullets and a scope with accurate drops to 700.... it's "primitive"

State game boards: bans scopes

Muzzle loader hunters: but my poor eyesight and lombago...

Victims of their own innovation, with just a smidgen of slight of hand.

My rifle is radically different than 30 years ago, granted 30 years ago I was a small child... guess fair play I've significantly updated my red rider since I was 6.

The whole rational behind bows and muzzle loaders getting early seasons, special tags and times is to give them an advantage to offset the significant inefficiencies of primitive weapons. Eliminate those efficiencies and you eliminate the need for the special season. Most of those seasons were fought for by well meaning people packing hawkin style rifles fighting to maintain a tradition way of hunting. States responded with the special seasons, but many years later we've come to the point where regulators go "hey that's not why we give you special stuff". Probably the easiest way to do that was eliminate magnified optics.

Then we get to the good old fashioned red herring of "but but.... hypocrite ".

Rifle season is like open class, your only limited by your imagination, budget and some times a caliber minimum. It's been like that in most states for long before my time. It's open to any and all, even your "muzzle loader".

Except that's the backwards way of looking at it, if you want to limit effective range and make it more primitive then limit the rifle itself rather than removing the optic. I can take the Nightforce off my smokeless and put it on my flintlock shooting round balls but that doesn't make it a 700 yard rifle.

People moved into the muzzleloader season because it became more and more difficult to draw tags in rifle. However when you are forking over tens of thousands of dollar to go out west to hunt you are using every advantage you have to not come home empty handed and waste years of savings.

I understand it and my license costs me less than $100, the PA game commission limiting doe opportunity during rifle season is the primary reason that I switched from my flintlock to a smokeless. I needed something to more reliably take deer during the early muzzleloader season when they removed half our opportunities in rifle season.

 

[comfisherman]

Well if you think it's not the best way to limit,write a letter.

Want better odds for all that money spent going out west, put in for a rifle tag.

Maybe it's backwards, I'll still bet my dollars and donuts it's not. But that option is only that, an internet opinion.

 

[KS2506]

Glad to see more people feeling the same way as I feel about this matter. I made the same comment in a post on long range muzzle loading awhile back, and more or less told to f off. IMO, The primitive seasons were set for people that enjoyed hunting with that type of weapon. Not some souped up version that has no comparison to the real thing. They should also allow only black powder or something like Pyrodex. No smokeless powder.

 

[RockyRandy]

Idaho has never allowed scoped ML's. I look at that season as a last chance effort for Idahoans, just in case you couldn't get one with a rifle.

This is true in Muzzle loader hunts but they are allowed in any SHORT RANGE hunts, which in it's self if quit interesting, SHORT RANGE!!

 

[fmuguira]

Either for or against changes like this; I have my opinion and Idaho does a lot of the same stuff on ML hunts, just remember these get into slippery slope situations quick. What prevents them from regulating CF rifle hunts regarding adjustable scope (dials), high BC bullet bans and claiming a 400 yard, 500 yard, 900 yard or some chosen distance is too far ?? Rangefinders… get rid of those too!

Oh BTW, an 80% let off bow with overdraw, etc, etc extends the archery range too much also.

All I m saying is when you get a governoring body making these type of decisions without very broad sportsman's input, a biased board member or special interest group/person influencing them then representation of the group (hunters) as a whole suffers. Unfortunately it's the world we live in fellas and IMO it's getting progressively worse. Reminds me of how our entire country, and the World for that matter, operates.

 

[Buckys]

The system is a mess. Too many people making to much money are feeding off of the notions like "you should not be allowed to hunt during time period ABC through XYZ unless I personally den it to be challenging enough".

I really love archery, Muzzle Loader, etc hunting for the same reason I like to play golf, it challenges me. But trying to make everyone else play by my rules is futile.

IMO, control it with number of tags and make the seasons liberal. Modulate the number of tags based on desired outcomes... if there are to many wounded animals, everyone gets less tags next year, etc.

And stop allowing government officials to profit from contributions from any business that profits from hunters.

 

[CMP70306]

Well if you think it's not the best way to limit,write a letter.

Want better odds for all that money spent going out west, put in for a rifle tag.

Maybe it's backwards, I'll still bet my dollars and donuts it's not. But that option is only that, an internet opinion.

I don't have a dog in the fight as I doubt I will even actually hunt in New Mexico so they don't care what I have to say. I went out west hunting once and based on that it's simply too expensive for me to do it more that a couple times in my life.

Look at it this way, removing scopes makes every shot less accurate whether you are shooting 50 or 200 yards while limiting the rifles capability reduces their effective range from several hundred yards down to 300 or less. Just look at the below chart and the drop and energy difference between a smokeless, BH209 in a smokeless, Inline shooting sabots and a .50 cal caplock.

The best scope in the world doesn't make that caplock a 300+ yard rifle.

 

[CMP70306]

Glad to see more people feeling the same way as I feel about this matter. I made the same comment in a post on long range muzzle loading awhile back, and more or less told to f off. IMO, The primitive seasons were set for people that enjoyed hunting with that type of weapon. Not some souped up version that has no comparison to the real thing. They should also allow only black powder or something like Pyrodex. No smokeless powder.

That's what I was getting at, if you want to limit the range then limit the effective range of the rifle itself by powder or bullet choice similar to how some states require straight wall cartridges rather than banning scopes.

 

[cvixx]

I been around long enough that the grey in my hair is turning to white. back in the 60s, the concept of primitive hunting was founded by Dixie Arms. It caught on and special hunts were approved. Again the concept was "primitive", and you had guys in buckskins, wearing Davy Crockett covers, and going to rendezvous, snd carrying side hammer rifles, or flintlocks for those who thought the percussion cap was too modern.

 

[Brent21]

Thinking there is more to it. They claim the muzzleloaders are too successful. They either reduce the number of tags or reduce the chances of harvesting an animal. Money won another one. They get the revenue and have more elk.

Have to wonder how the 17,000 muzzleloader hunters are going to react?
(See article mentioning the number of hunters)

I found this comment from the article lame:
"Liley said he expects that loss of animals to wounding by muzzleloaders may decrease under the prohibition against scoped muzzleloaders. Although scopes allow hunters to hit animals at long range, he said the animals may not give any indication that they've been hit so hunters may not follow up all their shots."

There are many older shooters, including me, that cannot focus on iron sights especially the rear sight. Unless there is some sort of accommodation then I won't be doing it anymore. There is some possible relief found in the article:
"Jesse Deubel, executive director of the New Mexico Wildlife Federation, said the group supports the prohibition of scopes on muzzleloaders. He said the NMWF focuses on providing more hunting opportunity for resident hunters. Deubel noted that the game department director has authority to provide reasonable accommodation to hunters with documented vision issues." Time will tell.

Speaking only for myself I would rather them lower the number of tags. In my OPINION this will lead to wounded animals and lost kills.

 

[sp6x6]

MT,just started a season, cap or flint, round ball only and I believe no optics

 

[crazymonkey]

What most don't want to say is its called

a muzzleloader season not a primitive season period! There are rules for muzzleloader hunts here in Arizona .No smokeless is not a approved powder.Most hunters are using inlines and such that shoot to maybe 300 on a good day .The bullet drop and energy loss from even blackhorn 209 should tell the tale for effective range .The drop in energy on that big slug starts fast and anyone that can't see that for themselves needs to look at the ballistics before they comment. Your 800yd muzzleloaders only get there if they are using smokeless .Again smokeless and no its not called a primitive weapon season. Bust the few that break the rules and run smokeless muzzleloaders during the muzzleloader season and leave the rest of us that follow the rules alone.

 

[ENCORE]

We are competing at 1,000yds with BH209 and the maximum charge allowed is 120grs by VOLUME. We had no problems reaching the targets. However, it's not a hunting distance whatsoever.

With 110grs by WEIGHT from a custom sending a 350gr XLD bullet............

 

[crazymonkey]

That's impressive!! The average hunter is probably limited to about 84gr I'm
not sure on that though For a standard 50 cal .I've got a paramount pro in 45cal and run 115 by weight of 209.The energy is there for a clean kill but my God the drop when you get out there is crazy.