Here is something interestinghttps://www.autotrickler.com/accuracy.html. In the end there seems to be a little knuckle dragging n chest pounding going on here.
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Need some advice on picking a scale.
- Thread starter SavageHunter11
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Here is something interestinghttps://www.autotrickler.com/accuracy.html. In the end there seems to be a little knuckle dragging n chest pounding going on here.
Seems like we need to be discussing how we measure velocity when talking about SD and velocity spreads of 1 or .5 granules of powder. I use LabRadar and ohler (4' spacing because hard to stabilize screens over longer separation) and I don't have confidence in sub 10fps (more like 5) precision needed to evaluate 1 granule of powder differences. Vertical stringing @ 1000+ yds provides clues but with all the other variables I always wonder if I'm chasing the right one. With above gear I've had what appeared to be a slow round go high and vice-versa. All this with sorted brass, measured/turned necks attention to tension and runout etc. The fact that some of you can manage those variables to make a granule of powder a big/measurable factor amazes and impresses me.
ar10ar15man
Well-Known Member
Do you anneal your necks EVERYTIME ?
my belief is that if you do not, you have neck tension variation, and it does not matter how well you measure powder if your neck tension is not UNIFORM.
lots of stuff affects vertical. neck tension , power weight accuracy, primer weight, case volume, shooter skills, uniform primer depth, uniform firing pin hit, trigger, rifle position, and on and on...so saying you cannot verify vertical with just charge weight...well that aint my problem. look at the whole picture
my belief is that if you do not, you have neck tension variation, and it does not matter how well you measure powder if your neck tension is not UNIFORM.
lots of stuff affects vertical. neck tension , power weight accuracy, primer weight, case volume, shooter skills, uniform primer depth, uniform firing pin hit, trigger, rifle position, and on and on...so saying you cannot verify vertical with just charge weight...well that aint my problem. look at the whole picture
Seems like we need to be discussing how we measure velocity when talking about SD and velocity spreads of 1 or .5 granules of powder. I use LabRadar and ohler (4' spacing because hard to stabilize screens over longer separation) and I don't have confidence in sub 10fps (more like 5) precision needed to evaluate 1 granule of powder differences. Vertical stringing @ 1000+ yds provides clues but with all the other variables I always wonder if I'm chasing the right one. With above gear I've had what appeared to be a slow round go high and vice-versa. All this with sorted brass, measured/turned necks attention to tension and runout etc. The fact that some of you can manage those variables to make a granule of powder a big/measurable factor amazes and impresses me.
Axl
Well-Known Member
In a hunting rifle in most cases you arent going to see a difference between annealing and not.Do you anneal your necks EVERYTIME ?
my belief is that if you do not, you have neck tension variation, and it does not matter how well you measure powder if your neck tension is not UNIFORM.
lots of stuff affects vertical. neck tension , power weight accuracy, primer weight, case volume, shooter skills, uniform primer depth, uniform firing pin hit, trigger, rifle position, and on and on...so saying you cannot verify vertical with just charge weight...well that aint my problem. look at the whole picture
you need to take a chill pill.
1/3 moa AT SHORT DISTANCE IS no big deal. this is a LONG RANGE FORUM. that is the part you are missing.
500 yards is NOT long range.
accuracy of my loads, like all things are relative. in long range shooting it is how you do against others on the same day in the same conditions.
to do good you need a good shooter, a good rifle, and good ammo. ammo is only part of the overall picture.
i am a 600 yard national champion. built the rifle, loaded the ammo and shot the gun. all three worked together over 2 days against some of the best in the nation. tied a national record for 3 targets, set high score at 1000 2 days latter. (2015).
( since you asked tho, my 300 win mag shoots .31/.32 ....at 200 yards, that is about 1/6 moa. HALF of your number)
it is ok for you to be happy with what you do, but to brag about 1/3 moa at short range on a long range forum is just pure hot air.
Where did you win your 600 yard National Champ in 2015.
Do you anneal your necks EVERYTIME ?
my belief is that if you do not, you have neck tension variation, and it does not matter how well you measure powder if your neck tension is not UNIFORM.
lots of stuff affects vertical. neck tension , power weight accuracy, primer weight, case volume, shooter skills, uniform primer depth, uniform firing pin hit, trigger, rifle position, and on and on...so saying you cannot verify vertical with just charge weight...well that aint my problem. look at the whole picture
I don't anneal necks every time. I also don't weight sort brass, primers, or bullets. I size, tumble, de prime, prime, charge, and seat. Vertical is mostly dependent on harmonic differentials. It doesn't matter if you sort everything to the .001 of a grain. If you do not find that sweet spot in velocity where harmonics are right you will have vertical.
People harp on case prep and how they do this and do that. Your reloading only has a small part to do with SD and ES. If it was the biggest variable, then you would not have to load develop.
Do you anneal your necks EVERYTIME ?
my belief is that if you do not, you have neck tension variation, and it does not matter how well you measure powder if your neck tension is not UNIFORM.
lots of stuff affects vertical. neck tension , power weight accuracy, primer weight, case volume, shooter skills, uniform primer depth, uniform firing pin hit, trigger, rifle position, and on and on...so saying you cannot verify vertical with just charge weight...well that aint my problem. look at the whole picture
I find nothing wrong at all with what you say. And from your entire list of variables I find the 1 granule of powder the least significant. It is however the easiest to remedy if you simply acquire expensive accurate scales which don't require much skill to operate. The other variables depend on personal skills and consistency thus harder to perfect or transfer to others (Art). The only brass I anneal every time are large magnums (300wm, 338L) while lower pressure about every 3rd. I admit I have not had great success at dependable single digit extreme spreads as others seem to (per labradar). It happens but not predictably. On scale issue I don't trust anything really. I have by ridiculous means calibrated what I have including test weights. In the end I usually use a Lyman M-5 ohaus that I modified and tuned. It will easily show a granule of extruded powder. It is somewhat of a pain. Every time I set it up I have figit with it to get it to settle the knives in the sweet spot (beam and pan) where it agrees with check weights. No jarring actions and careful placement of powder in pan and pan on scale. Tediously slow. I do use a chargemaster with sleeve in tube quite a bit. It is almost .2gr heavy on average. If I'm watching powder drop and readings climb as it finishes up I can tell if it is going to be a good measurement or not. The CM will beep and qualify a charge that is .2gr off (It's usual average) and in the heavy direction but as I said if I'm watching I see the signs of the error. Even with care I put the CM at +-.1 on precision. This is a long way of saying my system is not plug and play but accurate to a granule at a snails pace. I suppose I should get a lab scale since I love gadgets anyway but I doubt it will improve my shooting.
ar10ar15man
Well-Known Member
02b said nothing about hunting. he did talk about vertical at 1000. not the same for the op
there is a reason why i enclude what i am replying to.
there is a reason why i enclude what i am replying to.
In a hunting rifle in most cases you arent going to see a difference between annealing and not.
ar10ar15man
Well-Known Member
where the nationals were held that year..
i get the impression some do not believe me. i do not care. i have the plaque, the certificate and an embrodered large badge, the results published, and several small plaques for other 'WINS' within the matches.
you could just say "prove it" instead of trying to sneak around and see what is what. if i wanted to use my name on here i would have, i did not and i plan on it staying that way.
i get the impression some do not believe me. i do not care. i have the plaque, the certificate and an embrodered large badge, the results published, and several small plaques for other 'WINS' within the matches.
you could just say "prove it" instead of trying to sneak around and see what is what. if i wanted to use my name on here i would have, i did not and i plan on it staying that way.
Where did you win your 600 yard National Champ in 2015.
ar10ar15man
Well-Known Member
believe what you want, if you do not pay attention to small details , you will be an also ran in LONG RANGE PRECISION SHOOTING.
I don't anneal necks every time. I also don't weight sort brass, primers, or bullets. I size, tumble, de prime, prime, charge, and seat. Vertical is mostly dependent on harmonic differentials. It doesn't matter if you sort everything to the .001 of a grain. If you do not find that sweet spot in velocity where harmonics are right you will have vertical.
People harp on case prep and how they do this and do that. Your reloading only has a small part to do with SD and ES. If it was the biggest variable, then you would not have to load develop.
believe what you want, if you do not pay attention to small details , you will be an also ran in LONG RANGE PRECISION SHOOTING.
Lololol.
I promise I won't be "ran" in long range precision shooting. I'll be in Chesterfield SC the 30th, Warrenton NC the 7th, Alabama the 26th, and Tennessee May 24. You are more than welcome to come to me there or I can come to you if you are in the south east. I also have a mile range right here in Charleston SC. You are more than welcome to shoot my rifle and loads so you can see I won't be "ran".
ar10ar15man
Well-Known Member
what size is the x ring and what distance.
5 shot GROUPS and score
i said PRECISION, not random shots at steel.
5 shot GROUPS and score
i said PRECISION, not random shots at steel.
Lololol.
I promise I won't be "ran" in long range precision shooting. I'll be in Chesterfield SC the 30th, Warrenton NC the 7th, Alabama the 26th, and Tennessee May 24. You are more than welcome to come to me there or I can come to you if you are in the south east. I also have a mile range right here in Charleston SC. You are more than welcome to shoot my rifle and loads so you can see I won't be "ran".
