need help w/ M1A

[Bart B]

Kevin, I met Jim Hull in 1965 when with the USN team at a high power rifle match on Camp Pendledon Marine Corps base. Shot a lot of matches with him in southern California. Mid Tompkins introduced me to him as well as Eric St. John, Dick Ialo, Elmer Shook (riflesmith) and P.J. Wright (stockmaker). Last time I say Jim Hull was at the Nationals in the early or mid 1990's. All the high power shooters who knew him mourned his passing.

Around 1970, Jim gave me a couple hundred of their prototype .264" 140-gr. HPMK's to try in my .264 Win. Mag used for long range matches. Best 10 of 'em would do at 1000 was just under 20 inches. The Norma 139's I normally used stayed under 10 inches. He said his tests with this new bullet weren't all that great either. Had something to do with the extra long jacket material not extruding uniformly enough with the coin-cup-draw process used to make them; same thing with their .284" 168-gr. HPMK.

Jim's new 7mm Rem. Mag. rifle was used by my good friend Tom Treinen in 1970 at the Nationals to set a new Wimbledon Cup record. Mr. Hull said the bullets he loaded for it were only a few of the good ones as tested coming out of the pointing machine at the end of the production line used to make them.

I was privledged to have got a couple of behind-the-scenes tours of Sierra's Santa Fe plant by him. He showed me some of those test groups in the ones (under 2/10ths MOA) made with 30 caliber HPMK 168's and 190's. Jim was the one who convinced me back then to full length size my .308 and belted cases for best accuracy. Also, he enlightened me to the advantages of lapping out full length sizing dies' necks so expander balls need not be used. He also was responsible for sorting production runs of 30 caliber HPMK's into 1000-round boxes full of unpolished ones with the sizing lanolin grease still on them. Sold 'em to Bob Jensen and Mid Tompkins who retailed 'em at rifle matches. These shot 30 to 40 percent better accuracy than what their polished ones sold 100 per green box did. I've still got a few thousand of these in 180, 190 and 200 grain weights. Plopped 30 of them (15 190's and 15 200's, alternately fired) inside 7 inches at 1000 some years ago testing my rebarreled .30-.338 Keele. Each bullet's 15-shot group was about 5 inches. Sierra quit boxing these ugly, super-accurate bullets after Martin James Hull retired from Sierra.

 

[Kevin Thomas]

You're familiiar with the old crew then! I apprenticed under Jim and later took over the tech line when he retired. Before going to work for Sierra, I was a cop in Pomona for several years. One of the shifts I worked for Pomona gave me Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursdays off. At that time, Dick Ilao, K Oda, Ralph Corrall and several others used to shoot silhouette up at WEGC every Wednesday. They were a great bunch, and a tremendous wealth of knowledge on all things rifled. That became pretty much a weekly event for me, and was for several years.

Sounds like you're also familiar with Jim's term that a reloaded round should fit a chamber "like a rat turd rattling around in a violin case"? A colorful guy, to say the least, and quite a sense of humor when you got to know him. Absolutley LOVED Gary Larson's "The Far Side" strip and could literally laugh himself to tears reading them. Great shooter, and between him and Ilao, I don't think they'd missed a Perry trip in over thirty years when Jim finally stopped shooting. I wound up buying several of his rifles when he retired (including an unfired 6.5-06 that Elmer Shook built), and still have two beautiful claro stock blanks I bought from him. He was a good friend, and I was honored to write his "Left the Range" piece in Precision Shooting when he passed.

Used to shoot Pendleton, too, along with Noma, Mid, Nancy, Eric and the rest back when Bud Chai was running the matches on Wilcox. Just got back from a match in Phoenix last week with Mid and Michelle. Mid's not only going strong, but he's still a formidable competitor and irrascable as ever. I still stay in touch with Leslie (Bud and Helen's daughter), Bob Jensen, Noma, Tony Tello and some of the others from that area, so the legacy lives on. Good folks one and all.

Appreciate the little stroll down memory lane here, it put a smile on my face.

 

[Bart B]

Sounds like you're also familiar with Jim's term that a reloaded round should fit a chamber "like a rat turd rattling around in a violin case"?

I remember his term as "....like a turd in a punch bowl." But whatever it takes to get a lot of clearance between the case body and chamber walls. Jim Hull tried every conceivable resizing technique available. None produced the accuracy in Sierra's rail guns testing bullets as full length sized cases in gelded dies used in standard SAAMI chambers. Even several thousandths clearance between case and chamber neck was a good thing to do.

Few people know why such a case to chamber fit produces accuracy second to none. With a lot of clearance aroiund the case body, there's no way there'll be any interference between case and chamber body except where the extractor pushes the case against the chamber at the pressure ring point. And the front of the case is well centered as its shoulder mates perfectly with the chamber shoulder when the firing pin drives it into hard contact with the chamber shoulder.

Jim Hull was the first person to clue me in that new belted cases typically shoot more accurate than conventional full length or neck only sizing.

 

[Bart B]

Bart B, How did you know Jim?

Kevin, M.J. Hull was also the one who clued me in as to why Remington round receivers are not a good choice for an accurate rifle with ammo shooting bullets heavier than about 150 grains. They twist too much from barrel torque while the bullet's going down the barrel and work loose from epoxy bedding. I'd asked him about why my Rem 700 in .308 Win. would shoot very well for a couple hundred rounds, then accuracy dropped off, but after rebedding the receiver, accuracy went back to excellent.

Jim Hull asked me to check out the rifles used by folks winning the matches and setting the records. And also the Remington field rep (Ikey Starks) who won the highpower Nationals in 1965 using his Win. 70 rifle 'cause he also knew the Winny was near three times stiffer than the Remmy and held bedding good enough to wear out 2 or 3 barrels.

 

[ak1251]

Thank you to all that responded to this thread. I received the gun back today and went to the range to test it. To be honest, it didn't change one bit. It still groups at about 8-10" @ 100 yards from a bench. they said they had recrowned the barrel. Will be trading it for an AR-15 as soon as posiable so please no I TOLD YOU SO's.

 

[DZelenka]

Thank you to all that responded to this thread. I received the gun back today and went to the range to test it. To be honest, it didn't change one bit. It still groups at about 8-10" @ 100 yards from a bench. they said they had recrowned the barrel. Will be trading it for an AR-15 as soon as posiable so please no I TOLD YOU SO's.

Wouldn't think of it. If you need any advice concerning AR service rifles let me know.

 

[Kevin Thomas]

Now why would we do that?! As you can see, most of us who've responded to you here are M14 shooters ourselves who have already been down that path. Whatever resistance you feel now will fade pretty quickly once you start dealing with the ARs. They really are a good system, and ther's just too many good points in their favor not to make the switch.

Prepare to be assimilated . . . resistance is futile.

 

[ak1251]

Okay, my transformation to the Dark Side is now complete. From this point on I shall be known as Darth AR.Thank you to all that replied to this post. Kevin I never would have thought you were a Trekky...lol

 

[DZelenka]

Okay, my transformation to the Dark Side is now complete. From this point on I shall be known as Darth AR.Thank you to all that replied to this post. Kevin I never would have thought you were a Trekky...lol

Did you shoot it yet? Impressions? What did you end up with?

 

[Bart B]

Thank you to all that responded to this thread. I received the gun back today and went to the range to test it. To be honest, it didn't change one bit. It still groups at about 8-10" @ 100 yards from a bench. they said they had recrowned the barrel. Will be trading it for an AR-15 as soon as posiable so please no I TOLD YOU SO's.

If your M1A won't stay inside 2 to 3 inches at 3600 inches, I'd bet two live primers and one empty match case it's a bad build. Therefore, something's very wrong with it and probably all those who touched it before you did.

An AR-15 built the same way won't stay inside a foot at 100 yards.

 

[Kevin Thomas]

Okay Darth,

not a trekki, but I found out just how futile resistance was a long time ago. You're talking to a guy who went through basic with the M16, and then spent four years in an infantry unit and managed not to carry one again for almost my entire time in service. Had one very briefly a an RTO, and then took over an M60 the first time a spot came open. Carried that for over a year before going through sniper school, and then it was an M21 from there on out. I shot on the battalion team (M16s) for a part of each season, but when picked up by 101st MTU or 5th Army MTU transitioned to shooting Match M14s. Never liked the M16s, and I'll freely admit that. However . . . once the system fully matured, and we got the bullets that would equal the 30 cal offerings usable in the M14s, yeah, I had to grudgingly admit the fact that it's the better rifle. An average well-built AR will out shoot the best M14s ever put together, and it pains me to say that! Once I'd really started shooting the match tuned ARs seriously, oh yeah, there's no going back. I still love the M14s, but I'd have to be a fool not to admit the ARs superiority for this particular application. Like I said, resistance IS futile!

Besides, your scores will go up, your reloading costs will go down, parts are one helluva lot cheaper and you can do 90% (or more) of the work yourself. What's not to love about that?

 

[DZelenka]

Okay Darth,

not a trekki, but I found out just how futile resistance was a long time ago. You're talking to a guy who went through basic with the M16, and then spent four years in an infantry unit and managed not to carry one again for almost my entire time in service. Had one very briefly a an RTO, and then took over an M60 the first time a spot came open. Carried that for over a year before going through sniper school, and then it was an M21 from there on out. I shot on the battalion team (M16s) for a part of each season, but when picked up by 101st MTU or 5th Army MTU transitioned to shooting Match M14s. Never liked the M16s, and I'll freely admit that. However . . . once the system fully matured, and we got the bullets that would equal the 30 cal offerings usable in the M14s, yeah, I had to grudgingly admit the fact that it's the better rifle. An average well-built AR will out shoot the best M14s ever put together, and it pains me to say that! Once I'd really started shooting the match tuned ARs seriously, oh yeah, there's no going back. I still love the M14s, but I'd have to be a fool not to admit the ARs superiority for this particular application. Like I said, resistance IS futile!

Besides, your scores will go up, your reloading costs will go down, parts are one helluva lot cheaper and you can do 90% (or more) of the work yourself. What's not to love about that?

Pretty good selling points and you forgot to mention that after an 80 round match you won't feel like you went 15 rounds with Tyson.

 

[Kevin Thomas]

Yeah, that too.

Had our first match of the season last week. One of the newbies showed up with an '03A3, a carpet patch mat and no jacket. Glad those days are behind me. Ouch!

 

[DZelenka]

Kevin,

My year has been really up and down. I started in March with a 777. Not bad for a 51 yr old shooting an AR SR. But I got slaughtered at our regional in April and at the leg match - didn't even make the cut (by 1 place). The wind was brutal. It really put on a good show for the AMU shooters who showed up. Standing was a disaster for me (I usually shoot 96%, but I didn't even break 90%). The high point of the weekend was that one of my juniors won the Master class and then legged out the next day.

2 weeks ago I brought some of the kids to the range so they could get some slowfire practice done. One of the kids who has been shooting about 6 months shot a 199-7x at 600 in some prety challenging conditions. He said he found a condition and only shot when he saw it return. He had 3 3/4 MOA on the rifle and never moved the rear sight. I think he has promise. The load he was shooting was an 82 Berger over 24.1 RL15 in a WCC 07 case with Wolf SRM primer. I do like those 82s.

Also, check out my post in the optics section and let me know you thoughts.

Are you registered for CMP week yet?

Dan