Mrhounddog
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2013
- Messages
- 58
What model do you have?
-
If you are being asked to change your password, and unsure how to do it, follow these instructions. Click here
Need a new field dressing knife
- Thread starter mecanic04
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
I hear a ton of custom makers claim this stay sharp for many animals stuff. Steel is steel and has different properties. The Steel they use, ATS 34, just isn't that special. Cutting hair, especially Moose hair, or cutting on bone, is probably the hardest thing there is on an edge. If you can avoid doing those two things, any good knife will do multiple animals. If you cut Moose hair or cut on bone in any animal, you will need to touch up any knife, I don't care what it is made of.
ATS-34 Steel Overview
ATS-34 is a high-quality stainless steel, suitable for many types of knives. It is a product of Hitachi, a well-known Japanese company that produces it using high carbon and high chromium content, giving it excellent wear and corrosion resistance properties. This steel is comparable to the American-made 154CM steel, as they have similar chemical compositions.
With a Rockwell hardness of 60-61HRC, ATS-34 steel is known for its durability and toughness while maintaining a reasonable degree of corrosion resistance due to its high chromium content. This combination makes it an ideal choice for various knife applications, including kitchen cutlery, tactical knives, and folding blades.
One advantage of ATS-34 steel over other types of stainless steel is its good balance of hardness and toughness. While higher hardness levels can often lead to brittleness and reduced toughness, ATS-34 manages to have a decent toughness level even at 61HRC. This means that knives made with this steel can endure heavy usage without breaking or chipping easily.
Moreover, the composition of ATS-34 steel provides an added benefit in terms of sharpening and edge retention. Despite its hardness and wear resistance, it can still be sharpened using conventional methods. Furthermore, ATS-34 offers a high degree of edge retention, allowing the blade to maintain sharpness even after constant use. This ease of sharpening and long-lasting sharpness make ATS-34 steel an attractive option for knife users.
In short, ATS-34 is a reliable Japanese steel known for its stability, wear resistance, and corrosion resistance. With a balance between hardness and toughness, it demonstrates versatility and adaptability for various knife applications. It remains a popular choice in the knife industry due to its proven performance and ability to meet the various demands of knife users.
Composition and Properties
Composition Details
ATS 34 is a high carbon stainless steel, containing more than 1% carbon and over 12% chromium. This combination results in a steel with good corrosion resistance and wear resistance. The chemical composition also includes other alloying elements like molybdenum, manganese, silicon, and vanadium.
Here's a detailed breakdown of the elements in ATS 34 steel:
- Carbon (C): 1.05%
- Chromium (Cr): 14.0%
- Molybdenum (Mo): 4.0%
- Manganese (Mn): 0.5%
- Silicon (Si): 0.4%
- Phosphorus (P): 0.03%
- Sulfur (S): 0.03%
- Iron (Fe): Balance
Heat Resistance
ATS 34 steel features a high hardness level, reaching up to 60-61 HRC (Rockwell Hardness) when heat treated. The inclusion of chromium and molybdenum in its composition contributes to its heat resistance, making it a suitable choice for applications where it might be exposed to high temperatures, such as in chef knives or other kitchen utensils.
Tensile Strength
The high carbon content and the presence of alloying elements like manganese and silicon make ATS 34 steel strong and durable. This results in a decent toughness even with its high hardness rating: the steel can withstand extreme forces without breaking. It is worth mentioning that ATS 34 steel is not the toughest stainless steel available, but it holds its own and offers a good balance between hardness, wear resistance, and toughness.
Performance and Applications
Cutting Performance
ATS 34 steel offers excellent cutting performance due to its high hardness and strength. With a typical Rockwell hardness of 61 HRC, this steel provides good wear resistance and edge retention. Its relatively high carbon content results in excellent sharpness and cutting ability, making it a popular choice for knife blades.
While its performance is comparable to other premium steels like S30V, M390, and VG10, ATS 34 is considered to be more affordable and easier to manufacture. However, it is important to note that like other high carbon steels, ATS 34 may require more frequent sharpening than some other knife steels, such as H1 or ZDP-189.
Knives and Tool Usage
ATS 34 steel is commonly used in the production of custom knives, hunting knives, camping knives, and fishing knives. The excellent cutting performance and durability of ATS 34 make it an ideal choice for these applications. Its wear resistance and edge retention are particularly beneficial in outdoor and hard-use environments, where a reliable and sharp tool is crucial.
Many reputable knife makers, such as Benchmade and Loveless, have used ATS 34 steel in their products. It competes with other popular knife steels such as D2, S30V, and 8Cr13MoV, offering a similar balance of performance, cost, and ease of maintenance.
Industrial Applications
In addition to its use in knives and tools, ATS 34 steel can be found in various industrial applications. Its high tensile strength, durability, and heat resistance make it suitable for use in the automotive, aerospace, and manufacturing sectors. The steel's corrosion resistance also makes it a preferred material for components exposed to harsh environments, such as those in contact with sulfur, copper, or titanium.
Despite its many advantages and applications, it is worth noting that ATS 34 is not the most machinable steel. On the other hand, its Japanese stainless steel counterpart, AUS-8, offers better machinability while still providing excellent cutting performance and corrosion resistance.
Comparison to Other Steels
154CM and CPM 154
154CM is a popular stainless steel, known for its combination of high corrosion resistance and good edge retention. It is similar to ATS 34, but with slightly higher levels of chromium and molybdenum. CPM 154 is the powder metallurgy version of 154CM; it undergoes the CPM process to create a more uniform distribution of carbides, leading to improved toughness and wear resistance. Both are suited for various applications where a balance of corrosion resistance and edge retention is important, such as in fishing and camping.
440C Stainless Steel
440C stainless steel is another widely used option, known for its high hardness and excellent edge holding capability. It has higher chromium content than ATS 34, which gives it slightly better corrosion resistance, but it can be more difficult to sharpen. 440C is a popular choice for kitchen knives where edge retention and corrosion resistance are both important factors.
High Carbon Steels
High carbon steels, like 52100 or D2, offer excellent durability and edge retention, but they tend to be more prone to rust than stainless steels. The higher carbon content allows these steels to maintain a sharper edge longer, making them ideal for tasks requiring precise cutting. However, they are typically not the best choice for marine environments or high moisture areas, where corrosion resistance is crucial.
CPM Steels
CPM steels are a group of high-performance stainless and high carbon knife steels, made using the CPM process. These include popular options like S30V, S35VN, and S110V. This process results in a more consistent distribution of carbides and finer grain structure, which translates to improved toughness, wear resistance, and edge retention. CPM steels, such as S30V steel, are often used in high-end folding and fixed blade knives, where performance and resistance to wear are a priority.
Other Popular Steels
There are many other popular knife steels in production, offering various combinations of performance characteristics. Some examples include Elmax steel, known for its excellent corrosion resistance, toughness, and ease of sharpening; Carpenter CTS series steels, which offer high wear resistance and toughness; and ZDP-189 steel, which has an extremely high hardness and exceptional edge retention, but can be challenging to sharpen and may be more brittle. 8Cr13MoV steel is another option, providing a good balance of corrosion resistance, edge retention, and sharpenability at a more affordable price.
In conclusion, while ATS 34 is undoubtedly a good knife steel, it is important to consider other steels that offer varying performance characteristics based on specific applications and preferences. One should carefully weigh factors such as corrosion resistance, edge retention, toughness, and ease of sharpening to determine the best knife steel for their needs.
Maintenance and Care
Cleaning and Preventing Rust
ATS 34 is a good knife steel, known for its rust resistance due to its high chromium content. However, proper maintenance is still crucial to ensure its longevity. To clean the knife, use warm water and a gentle soap. Dry it thoroughly after cleaning to prevent moisture-induced rusting. Applying a thin layer of oil on the blade can also help in protecting the steel from rust and corrosion.
Compared to other knife steels, such as CPM S90V steel, ATS 34 is easier to maintain due to its rust resistance. However, CPM S90V steel offers better edge retention. When choosing the best knife steel for your needs, consider the balance between maintenance requirements and the desired performance characteristics.
Sharpening Techniques
Sharpening ATS 34 steel knives requires knowledge and skill. Despite its excellent edge retention, this steel can be somewhat challenging to sharpen compared to other steels like CPM 154. Using a quality sharpening stone or a sharpening system designed for hard steels is essential to achieve a sharp edge without damaging the knife.
Here are some key points to remember when sharpening:
- Use a consistent angle of approximately 20-25 degrees for the entire edge.
- Start with a coarse grit stone to remove metal, progress to a medium grit stone to refine the edge, and finish with a fine grit stone for polishing.
- Apply even pressure throughout the sharpening process to maintain a consistent edge.
In conclusion, when properly maintained and cared for, ATS 34 steel knives can offer excellent performance and durability. By regularly cleaning and preventing rust, as well as mastering the sharpening techniques, you can ensure that your knife lasts for years to come.
Dean, you perhaps more than many others would really appreciate a McCrosky Knife. You will take those benchmarks and give them to someone you don't like—some things you just have to see to believe.
I started off with the Small Elk skinner, which will do it all. Being predator hunter, I bought the trapper set, simply incredible knives on small animals. Then I Bought what Dave calls his larger "Bannana" knife.
I grew up skinning deer heads, fish, ducks, etc working with my Uncle who was a Taxidermist, and we butcher all our deer to this very day.
Some guys buy knives for their looks, I want the quality of steel that lasts and lasts and lasts.
Last time down at our deer club, it was doe day. I skinned three does. A guy next to me had a custom knife and Was struggling as his knife had got completely dull on the first deer. I asked him if he wanted to use my knife, and he went to work. Within 30 seconds, he was smiling...he had seen the light. I think the guy spent a few thousand dollars buying Dave's knives for family and Co-workers as they all traveled out of state on guided hunts. By day's end, that single knife of mine had skinned and butchered 8 does, cut through all the knuckles and neck joints, The knife still did not need a touch-up.
Previously, I had a drawer full of German and Swedish knives, and they were all sold on ebay.
At times, I will carry a Buck 110 or Buck 110 Lite, but always have a "Buck Steel" on my belt to touch them up with.
Good steel is half the battle. Proper heat treat is the other half.
I have several Benchmade folding/pocket knives w/154, S30V, and at least 1 M390. None of them come anywhere close to holding an edge like the same steel from Gene Ingram, or Charlie May.
They're "the same", except they're not. Not by a very wide margin.
I sharpen on Idahone ceramic sticks with the addition of a set of Russel diamond sticks to help start the right angle on something that's not 20-25 degrees to start out.
I also have a wicked edge w/diamond stones and leather strips w/5nm and 3.5nm polish.
Lansky, kitchen steel, old barber shop strop, worksharp, etc, etc, etc.
I have several Benchmade folding/pocket knives w/154, S30V, and at least 1 M390. None of them come anywhere close to holding an edge like the same steel from Gene Ingram, or Charlie May.
They're "the same", except they're not. Not by a very wide margin.
I sharpen on Idahone ceramic sticks with the addition of a set of Russel diamond sticks to help start the right angle on something that's not 20-25 degrees to start out.
I also have a wicked edge w/diamond stones and leather strips w/5nm and 3.5nm polish.
Lansky, kitchen steel, old barber shop strop, worksharp, etc, etc, etc.
I am well aware that the heat treat is a big part of the equation, but heat treat determines hardness. Buck has one of the very best, and most consistent heat treats of the large makers. Their S30V is as tough and retains an edge as good as any custom maker. Crotts claim to fame is their "special" heat treat on D2. Is it better than many commercial D2, yes, does it hold and edge as good as Buck S30V, no it doesn't. Crotts S30V holds an edge about the same as the Buck based on experience of a couple of guys I know that have them.
If you make the steel too hard, as in much past 61 or 62 Rockwell to get it to hold an edge longer, it will become brittle.
I do not care who the maker is, metallurgy is metallurgy. Tough and hard both have limits in a given steel. Beyond a limit, too hard compromises tough and maximum toughness is a trade off with edge retention.
Last edited:
Cryo does play a part, also.
True
dfanonymous
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2016
- Messages
- 2,321
So does grind angle. Or simply edge geometry.
the metal being a true stainless might be another feature in the metallurgy some might be interested in.
The stuff in the metal alloy process makes a difference too. The vanadium in s90v is a large attribute to its wear resistance and toughness for instance. On the flip side, what makes it so tough and durable also is what makes it harder to sharpen.
the metal being a true stainless might be another feature in the metallurgy some might be interested in.
The stuff in the metal alloy process makes a difference too. The vanadium in s90v is a large attribute to its wear resistance and toughness for instance. On the flip side, what makes it so tough and durable also is what makes it harder to sharpen.
Sharpening a knife goes way beyond Arkansas stone. Same for lathe and milling machine tooling.
Have you Ever watched a custom knife maker sharpen the finest blades? Duplicate their methods!
Have you Ever watched a custom knife maker sharpen the finest blades? Duplicate their methods!
Last edited:
pdugas
Well-Known Member
^^^ This
Hand Skills
Well-Known Member
Yup, there is WAY more to heat treat than hardness or HRC.
I think two main advantages Customs can offer are a small batch heat treat and thinner grinds (.010"ish behind the edge).
A good heat treat will always include cryo to reduce retained austenite in the final matrix, but thin-ness behind the edge correlates big time with edge retention. Most production blades are .025" behind the edge. They feel and cut like a wedge compared to a nice thin custom!
This video goes deep, but sums up what took me nearly a decade of study to learn;
Last edited:
I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and experience. You have almost talked me into trying one, and if I hadn't tried at least a dozen other customs of various wonder steels and heat treats, I would have probably already hit the buy button. A clean all season, never needs sharpening knife, is the holy grail and I have never found it. Instead I carry a small eezelap diamond steel in my pocket and can touch up any blade to hair popping sharp in half a dozen strokes. When I am done the animal, one more touch up on the steel and a few strokes on a strop and good to go for the next moose.
Last edited:
