Neck Turning/ should I /shouldnt I ?????????

[green 788]

I understand what you're saying... but to clarify, that's more than one good group. It's the light gun six target aggregate. So the rifle is obviously consistent.

I think it's important to learn from guys who "go against the grain" so to speak. There are countless examples of guys who sort of march to a different drum, who then, by their success, lead everyone else to knowledge.

I'm not saying that neck turning isn't ever necessary. I'm just saying that Schatz is a good example of a guy to does things differently, and wins.

There was a road race car in the late 50's, early 60's which was known as "Old Yeller II". It was basically a collection of parts from other cars, and the designer had about 1/10th the money invested in it than the British sports car afficianados had in their Jags, MG's, etc. Old Yeller II beat every car on the track, and he did so very consistently. He broke all the conventional rules of what you "had to do to win," and the British and European designers had to take note and respond to the success of "The Junkyard Dog" as Old Yeller II was affectionately known. They learned a few things from one old guy in a tiny garage out in California.

None of this is to say that neck turning will go out of fashion in BR circles. But then again, if guys like Schatz continue to win, it just may. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Dan

 

[goodgrouper]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's important to learn from guys who "go against the grain" so to speak. There are countless examples of guys who sort of march to a different drum, who then, by their success, lead everyone else to knowledge.



[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't agree more. That is one of the reasons I got into long range shooting and hunting in the first place. Doing something different than most has always attracted me. One example is case head squaring. Faithful follower of the idea, I stand charged and guilty.


[ QUOTE ]
that's more than one good group. It's the light gun six target aggregate. So the rifle is obviously consistent.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I should have used the term, "one good session". Either way you look at it though, there still tends to be more consistency in the game from the neck turners as a whole because those that turn necks far outnumber the ones who don't and therefore, also bring home more plaques. I don't mean to say that Richard isn't deserving of the record. He won it plain and simple, but I would be willing to bet the next guy who beats his record down the road will be a neck turner. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Anyways, good points here in this thread made by all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[lerch]

sent you a email GG

thanks
steve

 

[jb1000br]

Schatz does though sort his cases to 0.0005 thickness variation for his match stuff, so that is almost as close as you can neck turn (my NT process gives no more than -+0.0001" on my 50millionths mic)

My 6br lots seems pretty consistant too, but i was surprised one lot is consistantly THICKER in the neck area by over half a thou.

With over 4-5thou total clearance on a loaded round, i wouldnt turn either.

YMMV,
JB

 

[TOM H]

[ QUOTE ]
In the spirit of good conversation, however, we still must explain the success of Richard Schatz, whose story is linked in my first post in this thread. He's a world record holder who does not neck turn.

Just keepin' the fire poked. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Dan

[/ QUOTE ] There is alot to not turning neck, you can just clean up the necks and order a reamer anyone can do that and not claim turning necks. You could buy 500rds of brass and sort them and order a reamer, all kinds of ways to get around not turning necks. I don't put much into Schatz not turning neck since it can be misleading, it just makes for good copy. He deserved what he won.

 

[Dan B]

I'm by no means an expert but do a LOT of reloading for many different rifles and specialty handguns. My suggestion would be to have a chamber cast done to see what the actual chamber neck diameter is...then neck down 30-06 brass to 25-06, load a bullet and measure. If you are greater or equal to the chamber neck diameter then you can safely turn the necks until they are at least .001" under the chamber neck measurement. If you are under by more than that amount before you turn them then just do enough to "buzz" the necks like has been mentioned. You'll still have a thicker case neck (and less excessive expansion) in the neck area...meaning better bullet concentricity to the bore and better case life.

I do the same thing for my .243's and 7mm-08...use .308 Winchester brass and neck it down.

 

[Bart B]

DWM, your comment about not neck turning the last fourth of a case neck so it will center in the chamber, to me, doesn't make sense. Here's why.

There's always clearance between the case neck and chamber neck both before and after it's fired. There's more before it's fired. So, unless the unturned case neck part is exactly the same diameter of the chamber neck, there's no way it will be centered. Plus, the unturned part of the case neck will no doubt be of uneven thickness which means the turned section will not be concentric with the unturned section; this puts the turned section axis off center from the unturned section.

Besides, when the firing pin drives a rimless bottleneck case forward against the chamber shoulder, the case shoulder centers in the chamber shoulder before the primer ignites the powder. Unless the case neck is in perfect alignment with the case shoulder, the case neck will be off center in the chamber neck area.

 

[BountyHunter]

To say that Richard Shatz does not neck turn and try to draw an analogy that no one needs to neck turn is incorrect due to lack of details of what he is really doing.

Richard is not using a factory BR chamber. He is using a custom min SAAMI chamber especially cut (either .271 or .272) for unturned lapua brass that already gives no more than .002 for a loaded round versus the standard .010-.015 for a true factory chamber. Plus he uses the expensive Redding competition dies which some believe are a waste of money so guess that automatically proves them wrong too.

We also know that he sorts his brass to fit his chamber to give the equivalent of neck turned cases.

Lapua brass is one of the best and most uniform on the market. If he used unturned Rem brass he would be shooting nice "patterns" at 1000.

Neck turning for most factory chambers is not needed. If you do neck turn you must normally have a neck bushing die to control neck tension otherwise you create more problems than you might fix.

Top notch extremely accurate reloads are a total product of controlling ALL variables from primer pockets, flasholes, neck thickness, neck tension, bullet base to ogive, bullet weight, metplats etc.

BH

 

[LB]

[ QUOTE ]
Neck turning for most factory chambers is not needed. If you do neck turn you must normally have a neck bushing die to control neck tension otherwise you create more problems than you might fix.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree and already said so a couple pages ago. Then some expert disagreed. The problem here is all the detailed procedures are great if you don't have anything better to do and it makes you feel good. You really need to understand how to use an insert bushing die. In a tight neck chamber. But we are talking about a stock Savage 25'06. If you are looking for improvement in thousanths, measured with calipers, fine. Maybe? But, showing a marked improvement downrange is <u>just not</u> in the cards, I don't care who the expert is that tells you different.

By the way, I am not an expert, by any stretch of the imagination; but I can figure out a simple question that requires a practical response.

Good hunting. LB

 

[goodgrouper]

[ QUOTE ]
giving the high side a shave will always give you more consistent bullet release no matter how sloppy the chamber is.


[/ QUOTE ]

Lb,
Whether you think this is a frivilous practice or not, the above point I made is reason enough for me to "waste my time " as you hinted at. I can't hardly see where making brass better is a waste of time, but that is just my Op. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Oh, and by the way, running bushing dies will not change how thick the walls of your neck are no matter which bushing you try. The only way to get rid of the thick side is to cut it off.

 

[LB]

I certainly wouldn't dispute expert opinion, sir. Actually, I agree with your above comments. Therefore, if you review below, and still think you need to split some procedural hairs, then I believe that you just like to argue.

I still say, we are dealing with a stock Savage hunting rifle. Brass prep is good, but you might be promoting unrealistic expectations. On the other hand, I'm all for it, if a guy just plain likes to work his cases. Done correctly, it probably can't hurt. And, to be perfectly candid, I admit to doing all I can to promote accuracy.

Good hunting. LB


[ QUOTE ]
Re: Neck Turning/ should I /shouldnt I ????????? [Re: lerch]
#95523 - 01/11/06 05:13 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



I would not bother, unless your necks need a "little" truing up, and you decide to use Wilson type die or equiv. with the proper size bushing. I'd also get the chamber type seater. Otherwise, neck sizing is probably all you need. You are talking about precision loading techniques for a hunting rifle and the law of diminishing returns is in effect.

Good hunting. LB

PS, but it would be good practice, for when you have a tight necked rifle that would appreciate your efforts.

LB



[/ QUOTE ]

 

[Derek M.]

I do. And from the results I've had, I will continue. I do not have any factory rifles. All are custom. Early on in the thread, reference was made about R. Schatz not turning the necks. The point has already been made but I'll reinforce it.

1) He utilizes Lapua brass
2) Lapua does <font color="red"> not </font> make brass in all calibers
3) GG already pointed out, he methodically sorts brass for uniformity, essentially eliminating the need for turning.
4) WW and Rem brass, IME, perform substantially better when turned. They are NOT the same quality as Lapua.

IMO, the Schatz example is a bit of a blanket argument, when in reality, not all variables are the same for everyone. Again, give him a batch of RP brass and ask if he'd turn the necks to get the same results as Lapua.

Ultimately, you should just try it yourself and see for yourself whether or not it makes enough difference for you purposes. I'm an accuracy nut, have been loading for the better part of 20 years, and have seen my best groups ever in the last 3 years with better bullets, and added steps in my brass prep.

 

[green 788]

Derek, point taken about Lapua not making brass for all chamberings.

You mention that all of your rifles are custom made, and that neck turning has helped.

But the question is still on the table (and essentially unanswered) as to whether neck turning for a factory rifle will make a measurable difference in accuracy.

I would argue that the only way to know for sure is to do the blind bag test, which I detail HERE... Such a test will show whether a particular rifle, shooting a particular lot of brass, can benefit from neck turning. All postulations coming ahead of the results of such a test would have to be categorized as mere speculation.

Dan

 

[LB]

And yet, Derek. Somehow, I wonder if you appreciate the thrust of this thread? Lucky you, nothing but custom rifles to work with. Can you not see the distinction? This man expects significant results with non Lapua brass in his Savage. Are you suggesting that for him, there is more value in chucking his cases and buying Lapua instead of turning necks. I do not see this conversation as addressing the merits of turning necks, as a remedial effort for custom barrels with known neck dimensions. This man is just wondering about the value of using an accepted precision technique in a factory non blueprinted rifle.

The point that was made, re: R. Schatz; and that you choose to reinforce, doesn't have much application for this question. He doesn't, but others do....so what? Maybe I just look at things a little different? I'm attempting to be a little less anal, and more practical, considering the specific example. LB