My thoughts on solid copper bullets and in comparison to other bullet types.

I am very late to this thread and have only read the beginning. It may have been said, so forgive me if I am repeating. I want to give my analysis of the drt when there isn't a direct CNS impact. Animals have a heart beat. Blood pressure rises and falls with the heat beat. When a bullet hits and deforms it creates a pressure spike in the animal. Combine that pressure spike with the timing of high blood pressure during the heart beat and the possibility of dropping to the shot increase. What is happening is a blood pressure spike causing the animal to stroke out. It's not an electrical shock. It is a function of impact timing and bullet function. Some bullets create more pressure than others giving them a greater likelihood of stroking the animal out.

What we have figured out is this pressure increase comes from the rapid expansion of the bullet. The more rapidly that happens the more pressure. Kind of. If it happens on the outside of the body cavity, too quickly, then no pressure spike and hopefully that bullet has enough left to penetrate. This would typically be the highly frangible lead core bullet impacted at too high a velocity. If it happens on the inside of the animal but to slowly, then we wind up with a narrow wound channel and little visible impact on the animal. This is often when we see the animal run a long ways on a good hit. This often happens with the 100% weight retention bullets.

The trick is to get between these two. When we first started making bullets we did not have any consideration for the shed weight. We just knew that we wanted the nose of the bullet off ASAP. Our goal was to get a flat square frontal area on the retained shank as quick as possible to create a wide long permanent wound channel for the fastest blood loss possible. We want the bullet to become the flat frontal area like the old hard cast or wad cutter, knowing this form displaces soft tissue more perpendicular to the direction of bullet bullet travel than a rounded mushroom. This tissue displacement creates this increased pressure causing these more stunning kills. In our progression of bullet testing and searching for a copper that would do this at a very wide range of impact velocity, we figured out that the shed weight should not be ignored. We figured out that by increasing the amount of shed weight we increased the amount of initial pressure spike in the animal, increasing the amount of drt and less distance traveled after impact. I call it shock, probably technically incorrect. It is pressure increase. Easier to say though!

Next step in this progression was figuring out that what those shed petals do, lead bullets don't have shed petals, couldn't be discounted either. Radiating outward doesn't increase the permanent wound channel as much as having those petals track along with the retained shank. We often see the shed petals exit with the retained shank. An exit hole with several smaller holes around it.

We see more stunningly quick kills, from proper center mass hits, and rapid deaths from marginal hits than I have ever seen with any other bullet. Frankly, high success rates with marginal hits, is what is what separates great bullets from the rest.

I didn't intend to write this much. I am now running late. I hope I cleared up the drt phenomena. I also wanted to make it clear that mono bullets are not all the same. The one that I care about, Hammers, does not have the issues that are stereo typically given to mono bullets. Our bullet does not need more speed to function properly. Our bullet does not result in more travel after impact. Our bullet does not slightly deform at low velocity. We expect full deformation and shed weight down to 1800 fps. Our bullet is capable of higher velocity than conventional bullets of the same weight. Why not take it?

Hammers are in a class of their own.
 
I am very late to this thread and have only read the beginning. It may have been said, so forgive me if I am repeating. I want to give my analysis of the drt when there isn't a direct CNS impact. Animals have a heart beat. Blood pressure rises and falls with the heat beat. When a bullet hits and deforms it creates a pressure spike in the animal. Combine that pressure spike with the timing of high blood pressure during the heart beat and the possibility of dropping to the shot increase. What is happening is a blood pressure spike causing the animal to stroke out. It's not an electrical shock. It is a function of impact timing and bullet function. Some bullets create more pressure than others giving them a greater likelihood of stroking the animal out.

What we have figured out is this pressure increase comes from the rapid expansion of the bullet. The more rapidly that happens the more pressure. Kind of. If it happens on the outside of the body cavity, too quickly, then no pressure spike and hopefully that bullet has enough left to penetrate. This would typically be the highly frangible lead core bullet impacted at too high a velocity. If it happens on the inside of the animal but to slowly, then we wind up with a narrow wound channel and little visible impact on the animal. This is often when we see the animal run a long ways on a good hit. This often happens with the 100% weight retention bullets.

The trick is to get between these two. When we first started making bullets we did not have any consideration for the shed weight. We just knew that we wanted the nose of the bullet off ASAP. Our goal was to get a flat square frontal area on the retained shank as quick as possible to create a wide long permanent wound channel for the fastest blood loss possible. We want the bullet to become the flat frontal area like the old hard cast or wad cutter, knowing this form displaces soft tissue more perpendicular to the direction of bullet bullet travel than a rounded mushroom. This tissue displacement creates this increased pressure causing these more stunning kills. In our progression of bullet testing and searching for a copper that would do this at a very wide range of impact velocity, we figured out that the shed weight should not be ignored. We figured out that by increasing the amount of shed weight we increased the amount of initial pressure spike in the animal, increasing the amount of drt and less distance traveled after impact. I call it shock, probably technically incorrect. It is pressure increase. Easier to say though!

Next step in this progression was figuring out that what those shed petals do, lead bullets don't have shed petals, couldn't be discounted either. Radiating outward doesn't increase the permanent wound channel as much as having those petals track along with the retained shank. We often see the shed petals exit with the retained shank. An exit hole with several smaller holes around it.

We see more stunningly quick kills, from proper center mass hits, and rapid deaths from marginal hits than I have ever seen with any other bullet. Frankly, high success rates with marginal hits, is what is what separates great bullets from the rest.

I didn't intend to write this much. I am now running late. I hope I cleared up the drt phenomena. I also wanted to make it clear that mono bullets are not all the same. The one that I care about, Hammers, does not have the issues that are stereo typically given to mono bullets. Our bullet does not need more speed to function properly. Our bullet does not result in more travel after impact. Our bullet does not slightly deform at low velocity. We expect full deformation and shed weight down to 1800 fps. Our bullet is capable of higher velocity than conventional bullets of the same weight. Why not take it?

Hammers are in a class of their own.
Times are a changing
 
@Petey308, as a result of this thread/bullet construction thread, and my lead-free bullet compilation thread, a member offered to do a metal composition analysis of the same bullets I sent you for your analysis. Below is an excerpt (too big to display/lots of columns), I sorted it and displayed copper purity/composition. Anyways, I think this information belongs to your thread instead of starting a new/separate one. I have permission from the member/tester to send the files to you if you want. Test data comprises 7 large files. Let me know if you want it.

Bruker Nano GmbH, Germany
Quantification results
Mass percent (%)
Date:
SpectrumCu
BARLRX_308200 21.spx99.41
BD2_26125 20.spx
99.31589​
BD2_26125 19.spx
99.24028​
BARLRX_308200 22.spx
99.17328​
CBB308168 17.spx
99.14582​
CBB308168 18.spx
99.08929​
HAM308178 11.spx
99.07997​
HAM25117 15.spx
99.01849​
HAM308178 3.spx
98.99935​
HAM25117 16.spx
98.89941​
HAM308178 12.spx
98.79048​
CYG25117 14.spx
98.78272​
HAM308178 4.spx
98.72898​
CYG25117 13.spx
98.69757​
HAM25117 5.spx
98.66783​
CYG308178 10.spx
98.64048​
HAM25117 6.spx
98.62495​
CYG308178 9.spx
98.60255​
CYG308178 8.spx
98.55894​
BNS308168 29.spx
96.88887​
BNS690 31.spx
96.53794​
BNS308168 30.spx
96.32752​
HORGMX_01 11.spx
96.22972​
HORGMX_01 12.spx
96.10689​
BNS690 32.spx
95.85589​
Cu_std_block_Rh_50kV_399_microAmp_05042022_1
93.48453​
GMX685 27.spx
93.33799​
GMX685 28.spx
93.05818​
GMX2139 25.spx
92.13512​
GMX2139 26.spx
91.96168​
GSC26110 24.spx
91.74521​
GSC26110 23.spx
91.35859​
stage_blank 7.spx
0.511236​
Mean value:
94.09108​
Std. Abw.:
17.00668​
Std. Abw. rel. [%]:
18.0747​
Conf. interval:
2.960483​
Interesting analysis. I am looking at my latest copper certificate of quality. Specification is for 99.90% min. This particular batch is 99.98% copper with a standard deviation of 0%. Pretty much every batch is certified 99.98%. As I skim through the certs, I found one that is 99.99% cu.
 
I am very late to this thread and have only read the beginning. It may have been said, so forgive me if I am repeating. I want to give my analysis of the drt when there isn't a direct CNS impact. Animals have a heart beat. Blood pressure rises and falls with the heat beat. When a bullet hits and deforms it creates a pressure spike in the animal. Combine that pressure spike with the timing of high blood pressure during the heart beat and the possibility of dropping to the shot increase. What is happening is a blood pressure spike causing the animal to stroke out. It's not an electrical shock. It is a function of impact timing and bullet function. Some bullets create more pressure than others giving them a greater likelihood of stroking the animal out.

What we have figured out is this pressure increase comes from the rapid expansion of the bullet. The more rapidly that happens the more pressure. Kind of. If it happens on the outside of the body cavity, too quickly, then no pressure spike and hopefully that bullet has enough left to penetrate. This would typically be the highly frangible lead core bullet impacted at too high a velocity. If it happens on the inside of the animal but to slowly, then we wind up with a narrow wound channel and little visible impact on the animal. This is often when we see the animal run a long ways on a good hit. This often happens with the 100% weight retention bullets.

The trick is to get between these two. When we first started making bullets we did not have any consideration for the shed weight. We just knew that we wanted the nose of the bullet off ASAP. Our goal was to get a flat square frontal area on the retained shank as quick as possible to create a wide long permanent wound channel for the fastest blood loss possible. We want the bullet to become the flat frontal area like the old hard cast or wad cutter, knowing this form displaces soft tissue more perpendicular to the direction of bullet bullet travel than a rounded mushroom. This tissue displacement creates this increased pressure causing these more stunning kills. In our progression of bullet testing and searching for a copper that would do this at a very wide range of impact velocity, we figured out that the shed weight should not be ignored. We figured out that by increasing the amount of shed weight we increased the amount of initial pressure spike in the animal, increasing the amount of drt and less distance traveled after impact. I call it shock, probably technically incorrect. It is pressure increase. Easier to say though!

Next step in this progression was figuring out that what those shed petals do, lead bullets don't have shed petals, couldn't be discounted either. Radiating outward doesn't increase the permanent wound channel as much as having those petals track along with the retained shank. We often see the shed petals exit with the retained shank. An exit hole with several smaller holes around it.

We see more stunningly quick kills, from proper center mass hits, and rapid deaths from marginal hits than I have ever seen with any other bullet. Frankly, high success rates with marginal hits, is what is what separates great bullets from the rest.

I didn't intend to write this much. I am now running late. I hope I cleared up the drt phenomena. I also wanted to make it clear that mono bullets are not all the same. The one that I care about, Hammers, does not have the issues that are stereo typically given to mono bullets. Our bullet does not need more speed to function properly. Our bullet does not result in more travel after impact. Our bullet does not slightly deform at low velocity. We expect full deformation and shed weight down to 1800 fps. Our bullet is capable of higher velocity than conventional bullets of the same weight. Why not take it?

Hammers are in a class of their own.
I wouldn't exactly say they're in a class of their own. As stated below, others such as Cutting Edge bullets are designed to behave and perform the same way.

Cutting Edge Bullets lose their petals also, this is from the MTH;
"These bullets do not mushroom, but instead, fracture. After 1-2" of penetration, 3-4 petals will break off and radiate outward from the main wound channel about 2-3" creating massive trauma. They will expand down to 1600fps"
The Lazer line claims to expand down to 1,200 fps;
" These bullets do not mushroom, but instead, fracture. After 1-2" of penetration, 3 large petals will break off and radiate outward in a star pattern while the base continues through for even deeper penetration. Our Lazer line will expand down to 1200fps."View attachment 309850
DED8924A-4283-473B-83D6-7B494700EB15.jpeg
 
I wouldn't exactly say they're in a class of their own. As stated below, others such as Cutting Edge bullets are designed to behave and perform the same way.


View attachment 379035
We tried that copper in the beginning. It works ok, but didn't do exactly what we want. Too brittle and not controllable at varying impact velocity.

So similar, but not quite.
 
Oh I'm sure they're not exactly the same. My point was they're designed to behave the same as far as petals coming off and leaving the shank. Ironically, they even advertise that performance down to 1200fps, not that I believe that's reliable.
 
Oh I'm sure they're not exactly the same. My point was they're designed to behave the same as far as petals coming off and leaving the shank. Ironically, they even advertise that performance down to 1200fps, not that I believe that's reliable.
But they don't behave the same way,As you said" Advertised" They are in a class of their own
 
But they don't behave the same way,As you said" Advertised" They are in a class of their own
Can you prove that? Marketing does me little good.

I understand, and alluded to, that their advertised claims are likely not what would be found in real world results.

So prove to me that Hammers are truly in a class of their own compared to others, such as Cutting Edge MTH or Lazers.
 
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Can you prove that? Marketing does me little good.

I understand, and alluded to, that their advertised claims are likely not what would be found in real world results.

So prove to me that Hammers are truly in a class of their own compared to others, such as Cutting Edge MTH or Lazers.
Bud we can talk all day, so I'll make you this offer, tell me what caliber and what you are going to do with it, let me pick the bullet (I'll pay for them and send them to you)and the powder, call me and let me walk you though the loading procedure, I trust you will follow my instructions as I will not lead you astray then go kill something and see for yourself, it's Easy Peasy

Lee Brockmeier
6780 West Whitesell Ave
West Terre Haute In
47885
812-264-6183
[email protected]
 
Bud we can talk all day, so I'll make you this offer, tell me what caliber and what you are going to do with it, let me pick the bullet (I'll pay for them and send them to you)and the powder, call me and let me walk you though the loading procedure, I trust you will follow my instructions as I will not lead you astray then go kill something and see for yourself, it's Easy Peasy

Lee Brockmeier
6780 West Whitesell Ave
West Terre Haute In
47885
812-264-6183
[email protected]
I like this offer. I am interested to hear results. I have no experience or opinion hunting with monos. I only know one my rifles likes 180TSX.
 
Bud we can talk all day, so I'll make you this offer, tell me what caliber and what you are going to do with it, let me pick the bullet (I'll pay for them and send them to you)and the powder, call me and let me walk you though the loading procedure, I trust you will follow my instructions as I will not lead you astray then go kill something and see for yourself, it's Easy Peasy

Lee Brockmeier
6780 West Whitesell Ave
West Terre Haute In
47885
812-264-6183
[email protected]
Easy peasy, huh? That's all it would take? As in I've not tested bullets and don't know how to load up a bullet for success? What makes you so certain I haven't tested Hammers already? I have people send me bullets all the time.

You're missing my point. It's not about me seeing for myself. It's about the outlandish blanket claim that they're "in a class of their own".

And I'm not about to call you, email you, or show up to your house when you barely even gave me the time of day when I messaged you on here trying to settle our apparent differences. Has anyone ever called you when you pull that? Am I supposed to be impressed when you do that?

My only intent in this forum has only ever been to learn, share, and discuss. I hate the arguing and bickering and talking about posses, cults, etc.

Freedom of choice, and capitalism are two things that make this nation great. It drives innovation and competition. Unfortunately it tends to produce divisiveness in some occasions. This is a great example of such an occasion.
 
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