Moving from 338 to 7mm.

[elkkillinfull]

I am in the boat you are except mine is the 338 Edge. I cannot find brass or find any 300 gr bergers. And I am down to 7 rounds left my brass is on its second firing but no bullets to load in them. I have been considering rebarreling to the 300 Win for the last month now.

 

[brentc]

I am in the boat you are except mine is the 338 Edge. I cannot find brass or find any 300 gr bergers. And I am down to 7 rounds left my brass is on its second firing but no bullets to load in them. I have been considering rebarreling to the 300 Win for the last month now.

I have immediate access to Norma 300 RUM brass and 300 grain Bergers locally. Let me know how bad you need them and I'll help you out. I also have a nearly full bag of RP 300 RUM brass that will most likely go unused.

 

[Edd]

Do your own research and choose wisely. As for me I am done with 7's as of a few weeks ago. I have used them in many shapes and forms for many years. Have taken many elk with the 195's from the 7-300 this year and an antelope. Many elk in the past with 168's and 180's in fragmenting and controlled expansion offerings. So far this year I have been there, (along side the rifles) and for the field dressing, of close to 40 elk. Most taken with my rifles. 7mm's, 300's and .338's. I have seen over and over what happens when the shot placement is a little off. I now know for myself what I truly believe to be truth in this matter. Not internet hype, or jabber from fans from any given caliber, but what I have seen repeatedly for years and proven to myself for the last time this season. When similar heavy for caliber bullets are used, 30 cals kill better and quicker than 7's, and a good 338 will trump them both in ballistics and terminal performance.

Ballistic performance boils down to BC and velocity. Bigger higher BC bullets propelled at similar velocities will always end up with less drift, retain more velocity and arrive with more energy at some point. This is why the big 338's will trump 7's and 30's when all are loaded in the case to make them excel, and why bigger will go farther and do more work.

My medium bore magnum is now exclusively my 300 win with a 215 Berger at 3035 fps. It has shown me over and over how it will kill better than the 7's when point of impact is a little off. If I want to kill quicker and go farther than the 300 win. I will use my 338 Terminator.

May not be what some people want to hear. But this is 100% my opinion with 100's of elk kills in the last several seasons and documented results.

As for twist, I have used 9.25 to 1, many 9 to 1's, some 8.5 to 1's and some 8 to 1's in the 7's. I recommend you go with the 8 to 1. It will get you all the BC your bullets have to offer and keep it for farther.

I only wish I could show you for yourself what my eyes have seen this season with the 40 elk we have killed so far. Taking a 30 and a 338 to kill some more tomorrow if the weather permits.

Good luck in with whatever you choose.

Jeff

What 7mm cartridges and bullets are being compared to what 30 caliber cartridges and bullets? When comparing to a 300 Win Mag and a 215 gr bullet, I would expect most 7mm cartridges to be out classed. Comparing a 28 Nosler with a 195 gr bullet to a 300 Win Mag with a 215 gr bullet, I would expect similar performance. If the performance isn't comparable, maybe that 195 gr bullet needs some tweaking.

 

[MudRunner2005]

What 7mm cartridges and bullets are being compared to what 30 caliber cartridges and bullets? When comparing to a 300 Win Mag and a 215 gr bullet, I would expect most 7mm cartridges to be out classed. Comparing a 28 Nosler with a 195 gr bullet to a 300 Win Mag with a 215 gr bullet, I would expect similar performance. If the performance isn't comparable, maybe that 195 gr bullet needs some tweaking.

We actually have the same logic about something... I have asked that many times in the past, but no real answers other than "because it just does..." and "because the bullet is .024" larger in diameter it expands more, and because it's 20gr heavier..."

Even though we don't always agree on caliber, I do believe Jeff's experiences to be legit, and respect his opinion. However, it's just hard to imagine that small of an amount of difference on paper, could amount to that large of a difference in reality.

 

[bigngreen]

However, it's just hard to imagine that small of an amount of difference on paper, could amount to that large of a difference in reality.

Go shoot an elk gun)

 

[MudRunner2005]

Go shoot an elk gun)

I hope to someday. All I was saying was on paper the difference seems almost negligible.

 

[brentc]

Go shoot an elk gun)

Or a hundred of them for that matter.

 

[300R]

We have Bertram making 338 rum brass down here,I picked up a hundred the other day and it looks good,not sure who imports it around your part of the world but defiantly worth looking into.

 

[Broz]

I do believe Jeff's experiences to be legit, and respect his opinion. However, it's just hard to imagine that small of an amount of difference on paper, could amount to that large of a difference in reality.

Thanks Mud, I was of the same mind set. That's why I kept building and testing 7mm's. Even lead a few good friends to this having them build 7mm's. Ask BignGreen. I had him all set, we have reamers ready, and I was going to change my 300 win over to a 7mm for the 195's. I felt this was the perfect deal for me in a mid sized magnum. But when we went to the field this year with both rifles, and started shooting elk, (at times 3 a night) we soon saw once again that, the 300 win with a 215 just kills better and faster. I then went back to my shop and cut open some 195's and 215's to try to make sense of this. The only difference I found other than the obvious .024" dia. and the 20 grains of weight was the 215 has a .400" deep void in the tip and the 195 has about .300" deep void. I compared impact velocities and wound channels. I believe both the 215 and 195 do better with impact velocities under 2500 fps to limit some expansion. I called a few trusted well informed people in the field for their input. They told me the same thing, the 30 cal kills better and quicker than the 7mm and the 338 will better them both. This came from some huge 7mm fans. The same fact I have witnessed over and over, more one shot kills with the 215. Especially if the placement is off a little. In fact, we now have 31 consecutive one shot kills on the 300 win with a 215. The 7mm never made it to 5 before we needed a finishing shot, and one took 3 as it was still alive when we got there. One yearling calf elk took two. Again, these were not perfectly placed shots, but this is the pattern. I have seen the same placement with a 215 from a 300 win result in quicker dispatch and no finishing shots. Not just once, but numerous times. I have a unique situation here. I escort hunter into the ranch for depredation elk hunts. We are at over 40 kills just this season and will have many more. The only one lost so far was a 7 STW with a 175 LRA bullet. I found it a week or so later. It ran off and we could not find it that night. I have made the decision that it is very hard to beat a 30 cal 215 for my needs in a midsized magnum. I invested many many hours and lots of $$ trying to improve or make a 7mm match the terminal performance. But I could not. Thus the reason I will be shooting the old 300 win from here on till I come up with a plan to beat it for my needs, if there even is one?

Please believe me when I say I wanted to make a 7mm work and had great hopes for one. But I have to be truthful to myself and believe what is in front of me over and over. I am not knocking anything. Just sharing true field results with many documented kills.

That's all I have to offer for an explanation. We all have the choice to take it or leave it. I have simply beat myself to the end, and have to believe what I see.

I will not debate it, I , like many, derived to my opinion from experiences. I hope some find my results useful and maybe some will benefit from it.

Good luck to all.

Jeff

 

[FEENIX]

Jeff,

Real world experiences and success rates rules.

Ed

 

[MontanaMarine]

What Jeff relates through his experiences can be taken to the bank. Jeff's preferences are based on results quantified and analyzed over and over and over again.

I don't know anyone else as meticulous in the details of his rifles, ammo, shot preparation, and analysis of terminal ballistics.

 

[FEENIX]

What Jeff relates through his experiences can be taken to the bank. Jeff's preferences are based on results quantified and analyzed over and over and over again.

I don't know anyone else as meticulous in the details of his rifles, ammo, shot preparation, and analysis of terminal ballistics.

BAM!gun)

 

[aramarine6]

I appreciate the wealth of real life experience and advice. There was a meme bet that was kind enough to Google fu and find RUM brass for me. Im gonna buy enough to keep me going for the next two years.

 

[Pdvdh]

Terminal bullet performance in any caliber selection is even more important than bullet caliber, in my experiences.

I've experienced .338, .308, and .284 bullets fail to expand with otherwise lethal hits on large game animals, and there was no apparent improvement in disabling/killing affect on these animals based on bullet caliber. Other than the animal hit with the non-expanding .338 was a mid-sized black bear that took off like a scalded cat heading for the first available cover on the mountainside. But that's what bears tend to do with any hit, more so than the dall sheep that were hit with the .308 and .284 bullets. I and my hunting buddy emptied our rifles trying to slow / stop that bear before he reached cover.

I know a guy that's lived and hunted in a remote location on Kodiak Island for the past 35yrs. He's killed a few brown bear over the years. He told me one particularly memorable story about the largest brown bear he ever shot. He described the bear as frighteningly huge. He shot the bear with a .375 H&H magnum, full metal jacket bullets. Bear was about 70yds. Shot him broadside thru the ribs as the bear was sitting on his butt leaning his back up against a tree. Bear lets out some blood curdling growls and takes off. There was tracking snow on the ground. He gives the bear plenty of time to expire before following the tracks. Lots of blood for the first 400 yds in the snow. Not too much after that. He tracked that bear up into the mountains for more than 1 1/2 miles, until he lost tracking snow. The bear never really bedded down for any significant period of time. This guy's a crack shot at the closer ranges. He didn't recover the bear for undeniable proof of bullet impact location and terminal performance. But after being unable to find this bear, he set up some targets and fired a few rounds and he pasted them with boring regularity at the same distance the bear was - so his sights were dead on.

With expanding/expanded bullets, I also subscribe to the larger the caliber, the quicker the game or predator is disabled/killed. However punch a caliber size hole thru their ribs - from .284 up to .338 - and I haven't been able to discern any difference in the affect on the animal. I'm aware of one clear exception to this that comes to mind (even though it's inapplicable to long range hunting). It's largely based on the experiences of others I've talked with. The 12 gauge Brenneke slug at close range is deadly even on brown bear sized animals. These slugs don't expand. Clearly their unexpanded caliber and flat frontal face is sufficient to deliver a crippling blow. I killed a bull moose with one into the ribs at 120 yds, and it proved quite lethal.

My primary take-home message having read Broz's experiences with his 300 WM / Berger 215gr Hybrids hunting elk, is that the Berger 215gr Hybrid terminal performance has been outstanding on elk. The lesser take home is that larger caliber bullets dispatch animals with more authority, given similar terminal bullet performance. Largely because I've observed the same benefits from larger caliber bullets on moose and brown bear, as have other experienced Alaskan hunters/guides.

I'm not aware of any bear guides using 7mm calibers to back up their clients on brown bear hunts. 30 cal is about the smallest I've heard of. 338 and 375 are probably most common. A few will carry 458s.

Thanks for sharing your information Broz. My focus on bullet performance causes me to ask; regarding your prior use and experiences with the 300 WM 210 VLD on elk. I've reviewed your thread comparing the 210 to the 215, and I understand that the 215 has a higher BC value and can normally be pushed to a slightly higher MV. Based on the additional elk killed with the 215 Hybrid, could you sum up comparative differences in terminal performance between the 210 VLD and the 215 Hybrid in a single sentence? As in a little better? Moderately better? Substantially better?