MOA at 400 but can't get on target at 650?

[Crusty Buck]

The rifle will not shoot sub-MOA one minute then not perform the next without introducing shooting error. All variables being equal, it will produce equal results if the shooter maintains form. 500 and in, you can get away with alot of inconsistencies. 600 and out, they immediately show up.
Once your scope mounting is quickly verified, clean your rifle, and either on your tv or handheld device, open YouTube, search for "Snipers Hide Recoil Management" and watch Frank Galli's videos on shoulder pocket, grip, fire-control, setting up behind the rifle, recoil management, all of it. Get on the living room floor and start practicing. Shooting at distance only does one thing: exaggerates poor form of an inexperienced and uneducated shooter.
Good luck!

Go back to 400 and attempt to repeat former sub zero results. If they are the same as prior results, then possibly its barrel harmonics and bullet design. I agree that a glitch in any one factor of rifle control will throw you off.

 

[rgmeddn]

Skipping ahead, so apologize if already covered.
The picture of the 400 rock seems to have only 2 hits. So, maybe it's not really "MOA" at 400?
Second thought, aim small-miss small. Paint a black 6" or less bullseye in the center of the big orange.

 

[Tank308]

Go back to 400 and attempt to repeat former sub zero results. If they are the same as prior results, then possibly its barrel harmonics and bullet design. I agree that a glitch in any one factor of rifle control will throw you off.

The op said in post #14. Barrel my have been hot. 10 or so shots at 400 yards. Then 10 more at 650. A lot for a magnum.
Barrel heat
Barrel mirage
Parralax
Cant
Frustration of not hitting target
Crappie barrel
Fouled barrel
Ammo
All of the above?
Hope he goes back and narrows the field of options

 

[Tommy1984]

WOW.. so many helpful replies, I think im heading back out this evening for a rematch, lol.. To answer the question about cant, I haven't checked level, I had Cabela's install the scope so assumed they leveled it properly (they said they would) but I was shooting off a bipod and a rear bag..

Parallax is something I paid attention to but will keep that in mind.. I plan to recheck my zero, then go back to confirm the 400 and maybe close the distance on the 650 yard target to 600 even and retry..

One thing im thinking about is, we are talking about a rock laying on a bank here, its by no means perfectly vertical so would be easier to over shoot than if it were flat, so Im going to stand a smaller rock on top of it to try and get a vertical target..

P.S, I realize this thread has gotten several pages long now, and some have missed where I said it so ill say it again, I DO know where I hit, I was able to see the dirt impacts once the shooting was over, I just couldn't see the impact through the scope as the bipods jump clean off the table and land a few inches away, lol

 

[SergeantD]

could you read mirage? my 7rem mag has a difference of almost 7" of wind drift between 400 and 650 with a 4-5mph wind (which is pretty light)-- add a degree or 2 of scope/rifle cant to that and it can be around a foot--slight differences can cause large changes when you get out over 400 yards --shooting angles, slight wind, rifle cant, slight differences in velocity, slight changes in wind, even a zero that is off by a 1/4" at 100 yards can change your poi at distances

have you confirmed muzzle velocity/drop out past 400 yards before?

What he said!

 

[436]

Tommy1984,
"P.S, I realize this thread has gotten several pages long now, and some have missed where I said it so ill say it again, I DO know where I hit, I was able to see the dirt impacts once the shooting was over, I just couldn't see the impact through the scope as the bipods jump clean off the table and land a few inches away, lol[/QUOTE]"

Perhaps you said you had a spotter somewhere in here,...but, if not'.., take someone along to call the impacts for you I'm sure that would help, also take a good spotting scope as well.

Last, your quote; "I had Cabela's install the scope so assumed they leveled it properly (they said they would)" Don't bet on it

 

[flylo]

Put on a level. I check for level just before each shot.

 

[PNWdude67]

Hey guys, so I have browning stainless stalker in 300 WSM topped with a Leupold VX-5hd and shooting 180 grain trophy grade accubonds. I have a 100 yard zero and chornographed the speed im shooting. Im also using a gunwerks br2500 to get my elevation dials, and it worked perfect out to 400 or so yards where it was still holding MOA.

The issue is when I tried to take it out to 650, I spray painted a large rock about 3 feet by 3 feet orange and set up on it, made my dial and took aim slowly squeezing the trigger, each time I shot id raise my head to see a puff of smoke drifting in the wind near the rock thinking I made a hit..

Well after about 10 rounds I drove to my target to see I didn't make contact a single time! I hit ALL around it tho but could not even touch a 3ft by 3 ft target..

I also had another shooter with me who was also making Moa size hits at 400 yards with the rifle and they too had the same results as me at the 650 range..

Does this sound like a shooter issue or is it possible for the rifle to open it groups up that big over an extra 250 yards?

Thanks for any input.

Tommy

Hey Tommy,
If you were able to hold a 4 inch group at 400... not that much changes at 650 that things would be outside 6 MOA. You have a good optic so work on "keeping your face in the gun"(Phillip Velayo, gunwerks)" which means see your impact thru your optic. With practice, proper recoil management and a decent brake you will even see bullet trace to impact! Other than your scope fixation coming loose, your rifleman mechanics would be the only other factor to cause this. The first time I shot out that far I sucked, but you can't shoot better the second time if you don't try a first! Good luck with your shooting and hunting!

 

[PNWdude67]

Tommy1984,
"P.S, I realize this thread has gotten several pages long now, and some have missed where I said it so ill say it again, I DO know where I hit, I was able to see the dirt impacts once the shooting was over, I just couldn't see the impact through the scope as the bipods jump clean off the table and land a few inches away, lol

"

Perhaps you said you had a spotter somewhere in here,...but, if not'.., take someone along to call the impacts for you I'm sure that would help, also take a good spotting scope as well.

Last, your quote; "I had Cabela's install the scope so assumed they leveled it properly (they said they would)" Don't bet on it [/QUOTE]
I agree, Cabela's would mess scope installation up 10/10 times. Besides if you don't have a level indicator for reference it's a moot point anyway. Holding dead on and dialed for elevation rifle/scope can't makes no difference when hitting a nearly 6 MOA target at 650. More likely his custom elevation turret is off or he dialed it incorrectly some how.

 

[JimmyCP]

Hey guys, so I have browning stainless stalker in 300 WSM topped with a Leupold VX-5hd and shooting 180 grain trophy grade accubonds. I have a 100 yard zero and chornographed the speed im shooting. Im also using a gunwerks br2500 to get my elevation dials, and it worked perfect out to 400 or so yards where it was still holding MOA.

The issue is when I tried to take it out to 650, I spray painted a large rock about 3 feet by 3 feet orange and set up on it, made my dial and took aim slowly squeezing the trigger, each time I shot id raise my head to see a puff of smoke drifting in the wind near the rock thinking I made a hit..

Well after about 10 rounds I drove to my target to see I didn't make contact a single time! I hit ALL around it tho but could not even touch a 3ft by 3 ft target..

I also had another shooter with me who was also making Moa size hits at 400 yards with the rifle and they too had the same results as me at the 650 range..

Does this sound like a shooter issue or is it possible for the rifle to open it groups up that big over an extra 250 yards?

Thanks for any input.

Tommy

Check your torque on your rail and rings, if it's a free floating barrel run a dollar bill between it and the stock make sure the stock isn't touching it.

Put a decent piece of card board "no pun intended" as tall as you can find to shoot at. Zero at 100 at a bullseye close to the top. Go out to 200, 300, 400, 500, 600 and shoot at the bullseye WITHOUT ADJUSTING TURRETS FROM YOUR 100 YARD ZERO.
Then you can actually see where your bullets actually hit and get an actual measurment on the drop.

If all is shooting as should, draw 12x12 1 inch grid and shoot at the middle bullseye at 100 yards and run your turrets to see if there tracking at 1MOA and the back to zero. UP TO TOP, TO EACH CORNER AND BACK TO ZERO.

1MOA @100 can still make a decent shot out to 500-600 yards. It's beyond that when the rifle and bullet show what they are made of.

If it's not any of the above, I would definitely run a scope down the barrel. Last time it wasn't any of the above on a rifle I shot, it looked like gator skin down the rifling. You may be getting that carbon fiber barrel shortly.

 

[Brittany Kelm]

Tommy1984,
"P.S, I realize this thread has gotten several pages long now, and some have missed where I said it so ill say it again, I DO know where I hit, I was able to see the dirt impacts once the shooting was over, I just couldn't see the impact through the scope as the bipods jump clean off the table and land a few inches away, lol

"

Perhaps you said you had a spotter somewhere in here,...but, if not'.., take someone along to call the impacts for you I'm sure that would help, also take a good spotting scope as well.

Last, your quote; "I had Cabela's install the scope so assumed they leveled it properly (they said they would)" Don't bet on it [/QUOTE]

I have to agree that this is not a certainty . I have many friends through sniper schools that also took that for granted and a few had their builds set up at Cablela's. I have had to fix quite a few messed up setups. Additionally, as mentioned aside from Parallax the Anti-Cant bubble level is key. Setting up a distance verified drop table in ballistics makes a world of distance.

Best of luck.

 

[rammac]

Painting rocks to shoot at...enough said as far as I'm concerned.

 

[CVCOBRA1]

Cabela's set it up? No need to check on their work.

 

[powderBurnz]

Was the rifle canted to one side? Do you have a level on the rifle when shooting? That'll throw you off even if slightly canted, expounded the further the range.

To clarify im talking about the entire rifle/scope as it sits while you are on target firing. You can buy a cheap level from ebay that clamps onto either the scope tube or scope rail. Make sure as you fire that the level is .....level. A few degrees off level makes a big deal at 600-700-800+ yds. This is often confused with wind/mirage but compounds the issue.