Measuring Hodgdon's Triple Seven Powder Question?

[ATH]

You were asked a simple question and you provided a nasty attitude response. That's not what this forum is about. It's about the friendly exchange of information so that we can learn from one another. Quit being a jerk.

First of all, my reply was not nasty and it certainly was not intended to be so. Secondly, your question was not simple for the reasons stated in my post.

However if this is your character the discussion is over, there are plenty of great people to interact with here and I do not spend my time on the negative ones.

My personal load is either a 200SW and 110gr of 777 or a 325gr FTX and 135gr 777. I would hope anyone shooting deer at long range and posting on a long range hunting site would be using the proper bullets for such shooting. The 200SW expands well even at extended ranges. The 325s have simply flattened everything I shot with them and I've target shot them to 500 yards with excellent accuracy. I switched to them as they deliver a bit more punch and fight the wind a lot better.

 

[Deleted member 56284]

The flash holes are virtually the same size. If you could see both plugs side by side from the primer end you would clearly see that. What appears to be and was eluded to as a .310 flash hole is actually the part of the Blackhorn plug that is purposely enlarged to get the powder closer to the flash hole/primer for more consistent ignition. All that is based on the properties of Blackhorn vs. other forms of black powder substitutes, especially pellets. Blackhorn is much, much closer to a smokeless powder than it is Black Powder. Now I said closer to smokeless than Black Powder and I mean traditional Black Powder. It is the next step in progression or cutting edge from what we have seen in the black powder substitutes. All these properties can be seen as an advancement/advantage over what we have. Cleaner burning, easier to clean up after, no crud ring, can leave the weapon loaded for longer periods, longer shelf light, can be dispensed like through electronic dispenser/scales and cleans up with more traditional type solvents, i.e. Hoppes. One of the main downsides is that it is somewhat more difficult to ignite which is what we smokeless guys have to deal with. I have known about it since it came out but I long ago gone with White Hot pellets (didn't want to mess with loose powder) and then smokeless but still had a couple of conventional guns that I never shot and they are not worth much used. I love the feel and handling of my Apex and figured I would always pickup a centerfire barrel at some point. When I learned that Blackhorn only required conventional smokeless cleaning methods and it could be run though my RCBS chargemaster I decided to try it and I am glad I did. I would suggest to anyone that is on the fence to try it. My velocities and accuracy are good, loading is GREATLY improved, clean up is MUCH, MUCH better and ignition (with the correct plug) is no problem. I have left my Apex loaded for extended periods in sub zero temps and it has never failed to fire.

 

[Red Sparky]

trebark---Reading your post I assumed, yes I know what that means, you chronographed your load and figured it did not have the energy to take a deer at 200 yards. I assumed, yes there is that word again, you did not shoot a deer at 200 yards and have a failure. The load I used was with Pyrodex P, you will have to research it yourself but Pyrodex P can be used in a .50 muzzle loader. I used a 250 grain ShockWave bullet and one shot took out an elk at 200 yards. He was quartering to and the bullet went in right behind the extended front left leg, took out the heart and lungs, went through liver and stomach, some intestines and stopped under the hide in front of the rear right leg. He dropped 20 feet from where he was standing when I shot him. I was getting about 2000 fps muzzle velocity. I still have the bullet and it worked much like a fmj since half the jacket folded in and half mushroomed out.

 

[ENCORE]

trebark---Reading your post I assumed, yes I know what that means, you chronographed your load and figured it did not have the energy to take a deer at 200 yards. I assumed, yes there is that word again, you did not shoot a deer at 200 yards and have a failure. The load I used was with Pyrodex P, you will have to research it yourself but Pyrodex P can be used in a .50 muzzle loader. I used a 250 grain ShockWave bullet and one shot took out an elk at 200 yards. He was quartering to and the bullet went in right behind the extended front left leg, took out the heart and lungs, went through liver and stomach, some intestines and stopped under the hide in front of the rear right leg. He dropped 20 feet from where he was standing when I shot him. I was getting about 2000 fps muzzle velocity. I still have the bullet and it worked much like a fmj since half the jacket folded in and half mushroomed out.

Care to share a photo of the bullet? Although the elk expired, the performance of the Shockwave has been in question for quite some time.

 

[Red Sparky]

I will be glad to. My old computer that had my photos on them crashed so I will try to get new ones today. I will post them as soon as I get them.

 

[trebark]

trebark---Reading your post I assumed, yes I know what that means, you chronographed your load and figured it did not have the energy to take a deer at 200 yards. I assumed, yes there is that word again, you did not shoot a deer at 200 yards and have a failure. The load I used was with Pyrodex P, you will have to research it yourself but Pyrodex P can be used in a .50 muzzle loader. I used a 250 grain ShockWave bullet and one shot took out an elk at 200 yards. He was quartering to and the bullet went in right behind the extended front left leg, took out the heart and lungs, went through liver and stomach, some intestines and stopped under the hide in front of the rear right leg. He dropped 20 feet from where he was standing when I shot him. I was getting about 2000 fps muzzle velocity. I still have the bullet and it worked much like a fmj since half the jacket folded in and half mushroomed out.

Thank you for the thoughtful response. Your assumptions are correct.

 

[Red Sparky]

Here are the photos if I can upload them. As it has been stated a minimum .44 hole through the heart and lungs will get the job done.

 

[Red Sparky]

One more photo.

 

[ENCORE]

Thank you for the bullet photos.

 

[Red Sparky]

Not a problem ENCORE. I figure the extreme angle the side of the bullet hit a rib going in and folded over instead of mushrooming out. The wound channel was good and the only problem was I took out both the heart and liver, two of my favorite dishes. The back straps and elk burritos for the rest of the year made me get over it .

 

[ENCORE]

Not a problem ENCORE. I figure the extreme angle the side of the bullet hit a rib going in and folded over instead of mushrooming out. The wound channel was good and the only problem was I took out both the heart and liver, two of my favorite dishes. The back straps and elk burritos for the rest of the year made me get over it .

I've been in a few "discussions" about the Shockwave bullets, which I'm not partial to at all. Although they can be very accurate and from most rifles, I had one year of pulling my hair out using them. Before the year was over, I switched back to Barnes and no more problems.

 

[Red Sparky]

I can understand that. I got sent a sample of Power Belts to try and they grouped good but I was not going to adjust 4" low and to the left of my XTP loads so I never used them for hunting and never bought any. I use to hunt with XTP's but wanted a more aerodynamic bullet rather than any performance issues by the XTP's. So far I have had no failures with the ShockWaves, every deer I have hit with them was DRT with complete pass throughs and big holes on exit. I have shot 3 elk with them with similar results, two were complete pass throughs one at 60 yards and one at 110 yards. This was the only bullet that stayed in. They work for me but may not work for others so I will recommend them for others to try and make up their own minds about them. I only have to worry about it now because of my daughters and my deer hunts. I found something more addictive than muzzle loader elk hunting..........bows! During late archery the bulls are screaming where muzzle loader season they may or may not be.

 

[WildRose]

Velocity does not kill deer. Energy and bullet performance kills deer. I can't tell you what your problem is unless I know what bullet you were shooting, and where you hit the deer. Deer that were not "reliably killed" are typically either not recovered -- therefore we can debate forever what the reason is, but it is typically shooter error -- or a bullet that is driven faster than its performance envelope and comes apart.

So you've chrono'd your 3 pellet load and 245 grain bullet. What was your velocity? What was the bullet? If Powerbelt, there is your problem. Fragmenting bullets.

I've killed deer reliably with 85gr of Pyrodex under a 240gr HTP (yeah the pre-XTP days) at 200 yards. I doubt sufficient muzzle velocity was your issue. Deer hit in the heart/lungs die quickly with a minimum 44cal hole punched through them.

Velocity is a big factor in the energy equation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy#Calculating_muzzle_energy

If the velocity is not sufficient your bullet will not perform as designed.

If the velocity is too high bullets break apart and fail.

 

[ATH]

Although the elk expired, the performance of the Shockwave has been in question for quite some time.

I've killed somewhere north of fifty animals with Shockwave bullets. No issues. MOST people I have seen questioning Shockwave performance lost the animal and simply blamed the bullet.