Long-Range Terminal Ballistics

[RamBowMike]

Thanks for pointing out im a junior member. Means nothing to me, since its just a useless post count related title.

If you shot critters with all those calibers and they ran off, maybe try for the kill zone more often.

Back on topic, im curious to know the minimum accepted ft lbs necessary for ethical kills on game per animal weight

Junior Member, thank you for implying that I am a bad shot or don't know how to aim? Check out my You Tube Videos under RamBowMike and check out some of my property as well as the video of my son in the army.

Why such anger and Antagonism from you towards me? When I was an (MP in the Marine Corps) we used to take people like you behind buildings for an attitude adjustment. (It always seemed to work)

The video of my son (Brian) who is also an MP and still in the Army found under RamBowMike on You Tube. Check out his military awards as he explains the photos of his fallen friends he served with during his first and second tour in Iraq in 2006-2009. He is still in the army over in Belgium.

Now cant you just please get along with everybody and stop the Antagonizing remarks?

Thank You.

 

[jmd025]

Ethical is something we don't discuss in this forum.

As others stated, there are too many variables to say for sure.

However, I often use 1800 fps and 1000 ft-lbs for whitetails as a quick rule of thumb. Most bullets will perform at that rate although, some are on the verge of not expanding. I beleive Berger will perform at slightly lower impact velocities and Barnes requires a little more.

Having said that, damage to vital organs is the ONLY thing that matters.

-- richard

sorry for the confusion here, I asked this question KNOWING what answer i'd get, lol to make a point.

I have absolutely no idea of what point you are speaking of?
Does anybody else know?

Here's the point: in rambow's first post in this thread he touts the 223/DRT combo for its killing ability, stating that some other fine calibers were letting his deer walk around and dance the tango after a hit....... I was simply beating around the bush to see if he thought there might be too many other VARIABLES at work here to claim those caliber s didn't get the job done satisfactory. Instead he must be over looking that it could have been bullet design or heavens forbid operator error not anchoring those deer on the spot. I guess the implication that a 223 is a better performer than a 30 cal just threw me for a loop. Haha

 

[rscott5028]

sorry for the confusion here, I asked this question KNOWING what answer i'd get, lol to make a point.


Here's the point: in rambow's first post in this thread he touts the 223/DRT combo for its killing ability, stating that some other fine calibers were letting his deer walk around and dance the tango after a hit....... I was simply beating around the bush to see if he thought there might be too many other VARIABLES at work here to claim those caliber s didn't get the job done satisfactory. Instead he must be over looking that it could have been bullet design or heavens forbid operator error not anchoring those deer on the spot. I guess the implication that a 223 is a better performer than a 30 cal just threw me for a loop. Haha

I'm sure rambo is plenty knowledgable/capable. I certainly salute him for his and his son's service to our country.
Sometimes the more one tries to explain, the less clear it is to others.
Or, if you try to keep it simple, you get criticized.
Either way, the humor doesn't always come across as good-natured. It often seems condescending.
If you want to make a point. It's probably better to come right out with it than to expect folks to read between the lines.
JMO
-- richard

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Why are we discussing the 223 in a thread titled "Long Range Terminal Ballistics"?

I'm confused....

 

[rscott5028]

Why are we discussing the 223 in a thread titled "Long Range Terminal Ballistics"?

I'm confused....

It's all relative to me. I suppose you could have Long Range Terminal Ballistics pertaining to BB guns or Howitzers.

I just don't see the need to hammer a guy because he gets excited and wants to share his experience/opinion. ...even if we disagree

I bet we'd all be a little more courteous/respectful and a lot less cheeky sitting at the firing line with loaded weapons.

-- richard

 

[RamBowMike]

I'm sure rambo is plenty knowledgable/capable. I certainly salute him for his and his son's service to our country.
Sometimes the more one tries to explain, the less clear it is to others.
Or, if you try to keep it simple, you get criticized.
Either way, the humor doesn't always come across as good-natured. It often seems condescending.
If you want to make a point. It's probably better to come right out with it than to expect folks to read between the lines.
JMO
-- richard

Richard (RSCOTT), I applaud you for your maturity; you are a diplomat with skill and have the ability to recognize and salute fellow soldiers that have served our country. (Myself and My Son) and all the fallen soldiers as well. It will either soften or harden the hearts of many.

Lastly, I own many of high caliber rifles including the Colt AR-15 Platform Rifle. It is my favorite rifle and with todays modern loads will collapse even the largest northern Michigan Whitetail deer. The farthest shot I've taken a deer with the 223 60gr DRT bullet was just under 200 yards. The deer dropped in its tracks. I have never had this happen with any of my other rifles. It's not the rifle that kills the deer, it's the choice of ammunition and bullet that does the ethical kill. (I prefer soft points in all my rifles) I've had the same luck with the Blackhills 60gr soft points. Out to 200 yards.
Here in Michigan we really don't get any shots greater than 200 yards. This is brush country.
Not sure if a 200 yard shot counts as a long range shot or not, but it does here in Michigan.

Thank you for your maturity and recognition to our soldiers including my son who is stationed over in Belgium as we speak.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

It's all relative to me. I suppose you could have Long Range Terminal Ballistics pertaining to BB guns or Howitzers.

I just don't see the need to hammer a guy because he gets excited and wants to share his experience/opinion. ...even if we disagree

I bet we'd all be a little more courteous/respectful and a lot less cheeky sitting at the firing line with loaded weapons.

-- richard

I believe in respect which I didn't see much of by RamBowMike in another thread. Anyone should get a second chance. I'm not hammering the guy, just asking why we're talking about a short range cartridge in a LR thread? Sure you can say things are relative, but I don't think the purpose of this thread is to read anecdotal stories of deer being shot by a 223 at 200 yds and less.

I think it's great that RamBow's son is serving the country just like many other member's sons are serving as well as many of us ourselves have served. But what does that have to do with the subject?

I think I have a pretty good handle on terminal ballistics both near and far but I'm always interested in hearing new stuff or experiences. I think some of the posts in this thread are muddying the LR water for others who may be following it. Let's get back to the subject.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Richard (RSCOTT), I applaud you for your maturity; you are a diplomat with skill and have the ability to recognize and salute fellow soldiers that have served our country. (Myself and My Son) and all the fallen soldiers as well. It will either soften or harden the hearts of many.

Lastly, I own many of high caliber rifles including the Colt AR-15 Platform Rifle. It is my favorite rifle and with todays modern loads will collapse even the largest northern Michigan Whitetail deer. The farthest shot I've taken a deer with the 223 60gr DRT bullet was just under 200 yards. The deer dropped in its tracks. I have never had this happen with any of my other rifles. It's not the rifle that kills the deer, it's the choice of ammunition and bullet that does the ethical kill. (I prefer soft points in all my rifles) I've had the same luck with the Blackhills 60gr soft points. Out to 200 yards.
Here in Michigan we really don't get any shots greater than 200 yards. This is brush country.
Not sure if a 200 yard shot counts as a long range shot or not, but it does here in Michigan.

Thank you for your maturity and recognition to our soldiers including my son who is stationed over in Belgium as we speak.

RamBowMike, why are you here in the LRH forums? This site is dedicated LR shooting and hunting which most people consider to be beyond 600 yds... where you need specialized equipment, understanding and skills to make accurate shots. I'm not trying to be unfriendly but that is what this site is about. There are numerous other shooting and hunting sites that cover typical shooting and hunting ranges. Feel free to engage in LR subjects here.

 

[RamBowMike]

I'm shaking hands right now with everyone in this room... We are all blood brothers with a strong passion for guns and ammunition.

I Love each and everyone of you as fellow firearm brothers for believing in the Right to Bear Arms while helping others achieve the same wisdom and knowledge that you have.

Please continue to share your wisdom and experiences with others in this room!

 

[rscott5028]

So, I went back and read a little about the DRT ammo that was referenced and I think it's interesting and relevant to LRH.

A lot of guys ask about or promote the use of Barnes bullets for LRH. But, I often question that choice considering that the BCs are significantly lower than Berger and they require a higher impact velocity in order to expand. Hence, I feel Berger is a better choice for LRH.

If I understand the hype from DRT, they assert that their highly frangible bullets are better still due to their "explosive" nature.

I didn't see the BC for the .223. But, they do have a .585 BC listed for their 200gr .308.

As other posters have agreed that there are many variables and bullet choice is important, does DRT have the terminal performance and potential to become a player in LRH? Why/why not?

-- richard

 

[RamBowMike]

Below is the link to the DRT Ballistic Chart:

http://www.drtammo.com/content/PDF/BalisticInfo.pdf

I believe DRT offers a great Long Range Bullet.gun) http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/images/smilies/smilie-gun.gif

 

[elkaholic]

In response to the original question, I don't believe foot pounds is a good measure of killing power at long range, (or at least not the best measure) I believe tissue damage is what we are really concerned about at ANY range. Energy just happens to be a part of the total package (sort of like S.D. is to B.C.) Having said that, I think what we really want in a long range bullets killing ability is enough construction to penetrate, coupled with enough expansion to do some internal damage. The amount of energy and velocity required to accomplish this is highly dependent on the shape and construction of the bullet. Long range killing with a rifle is probably more akin to archery than we would like to think! In other words, lots of energy is not going to be there and isn't the "killing factor". This is why it has been stated in past posts, "there are good long range bullets, and good hunting bullets, but few good long range hunting bullets"! My opinion.........Rich

 

[Buffalobob]

Nice post on bullets.

I would mention that Len did provide a sub forum for the AR guys.

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

I think Rich/Elkaholic is right on the money.