Hard rock
Well-Known Member
If I was shooting factory ammo the 143 gr eldx is my choice with the 6.5 PRC . They are great bullets .
Long range bullets at close range
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Hard rock
Well-Known Member
I've got a ranch on the other side of Senora 14 miles east of the Pecos 34 miles NW of Ozona , we have mule deer but did not know Senora does that is good too know.
Trans-Pecos mule deer at 100 yds, 168 Berger VLD hunting bullet out of a 7 mag. Velocity approx 2950 fps at the muzzle.
Hit the deer in the middle of the front shoulder blade as he was walking into the brush. Pretty much 90 degree impact position, bullet travel to side of deer. Knocked him flat down for about 30 seconds, then he was trying to get up. Another shot finished him.
As stated earlier, the bullet never entered the chest cavity. The shoulder bone mushroomed it with no further penetration.
Semi bad shot on my part but even worse performance of the bullet. One would assume that any "hunting" style bullet would penetrate a shoulder at 100 yds. That one did not.
Same rifle/bullet setup, whitetail buck 120 yds facing directly at me. Shot him in the upper chest/neck area, recovered the bullet in the hide on the off side rib cage. That time it hit a soft spot first then traveled almost completely through the deer.
YMMV, mine did in those two instances.
Hit the deer in the middle of the front shoulder blade as he was walking into the brush. Pretty much 90 degree impact position, bullet travel to side of deer. Knocked him flat down for about 30 seconds, then he was trying to get up. Another shot finished him.
As stated earlier, the bullet never entered the chest cavity. The shoulder bone mushroomed it with no further penetration.
Semi bad shot on my part but even worse performance of the bullet. One would assume that any "hunting" style bullet would penetrate a shoulder at 100 yds. That one did not.
Same rifle/bullet setup, whitetail buck 120 yds facing directly at me. Shot him in the upper chest/neck area, recovered the bullet in the hide on the off side rib cage. That time it hit a soft spot first then traveled almost completely through the deer.
YMMV, mine did in those two instances.
Ckleeves
Well-Known Member
^ You're saying a mule deer scapula flat stopped a 168? Got any pics of the bullet or scapula? It's interesting it mushroomed and stopped. Fragmenting and stopping I could maybe see but mushrooming and just stopping on a scapula is bizarre.
Well, nothing is a sure thing until it is a sure thing, proper planning is a great thing until the plan is no longer valid. I got the what for recently on a post I made concerning neck and head shots from 150 yards and closer. I have never had an animal run off with the head or a neck shot until one did!
Several years ago, I shot a large red stag at about 30 yards with a 30-06 and Berger 168 Classic Hunter, shot it right behind the shoulder, he ran about 20 yards and flopped down. I think, well that was easy, I wait about 10 minutes, I light a cigarette, gun is leaned up against a bush, I hear a noise and look, there my Red Stag is standing and looking at me. I reach to grab the gun and lickety split he's gone. Looked for that Stag all day long and part of the next day, there was little bit of blood where he went down and spot or 2 every once in a while, the 1st couple hundred yards then it just stopped.
2 weeks later I get a call from the rancher saying they found him via the buzzards, I went to get the head and antlers, while I was going about the stinky process, I had to see what happened when the bullet impacted, he was laying on the opposite side of the impact, so I cut the hide back where the bullet had entered, the bullet had dead centered a rib and undoubtably exploded. The rib had a chunk missing and I suppose it was just a bunch of tiny pieces that entered the cavity, I did find a small piece of the jacket embedded in the rib. The Stag had made it approx. 2 miles from where he was originally hit before expiring.
I have shot whitetail at less than 100 yards with a 257 Bee with 115 Gr Partions and every one of those bullets exploded at some point past entry as I found the entire jacket crumpled up between the ribs and the hide on the opposite side, 6 of them. Every one of those animals never took a step DRT. I have shot the same rifle and bullet out to a little past 500 Yards several times and the bullet exited every time, and the result was a dead animal every time as well.
I will stick with Neck and Head shots for close in targets, the Red Stag incident is why I started doing the neck and head shots on close in targets and all my hunting rifles are accurate to the point there is no lack of confidence where the bullet is going to land from 150 and in.
All that being said, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose that's why they call it hunting instead of killing!
Several years ago, I shot a large red stag at about 30 yards with a 30-06 and Berger 168 Classic Hunter, shot it right behind the shoulder, he ran about 20 yards and flopped down. I think, well that was easy, I wait about 10 minutes, I light a cigarette, gun is leaned up against a bush, I hear a noise and look, there my Red Stag is standing and looking at me. I reach to grab the gun and lickety split he's gone. Looked for that Stag all day long and part of the next day, there was little bit of blood where he went down and spot or 2 every once in a while, the 1st couple hundred yards then it just stopped.
2 weeks later I get a call from the rancher saying they found him via the buzzards, I went to get the head and antlers, while I was going about the stinky process, I had to see what happened when the bullet impacted, he was laying on the opposite side of the impact, so I cut the hide back where the bullet had entered, the bullet had dead centered a rib and undoubtably exploded. The rib had a chunk missing and I suppose it was just a bunch of tiny pieces that entered the cavity, I did find a small piece of the jacket embedded in the rib. The Stag had made it approx. 2 miles from where he was originally hit before expiring.
I have shot whitetail at less than 100 yards with a 257 Bee with 115 Gr Partions and every one of those bullets exploded at some point past entry as I found the entire jacket crumpled up between the ribs and the hide on the opposite side, 6 of them. Every one of those animals never took a step DRT. I have shot the same rifle and bullet out to a little past 500 Yards several times and the bullet exited every time, and the result was a dead animal every time as well.
I will stick with Neck and Head shots for close in targets, the Red Stag incident is why I started doing the neck and head shots on close in targets and all my hunting rifles are accurate to the point there is no lack of confidence where the bullet is going to land from 150 and in.
All that being said, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose that's why they call it hunting instead of killing!
^^^ Yes, and this is an example of the pointless interchange that happens too often.
Maybe fragmenting is a better word. In either case, it did not penetrate the shoulder blade and enter the chest cavity. And yes, it stopped the 168 from entering the chest cavity.
Not all cup and core bullets are equal.
Not all bonded bullets are equal.
Not all monos are equal.
Not all match bullets are equal.
Not all cartridges, rifles, twist rates, freebore blah blah are equal.
Not all shooters are equal.
Not all game animals are equal.
Not all environmental conditions are equal.
The ONLY equalizer is if I shoot whatever bullet and I determine its performance for me. Anything else is just noise.
Not all bonded bullets are equal.
Not all monos are equal.
Not all match bullets are equal.
Not all cartridges, rifles, twist rates, freebore blah blah are equal.
Not all shooters are equal.
Not all game animals are equal.
Not all environmental conditions are equal.
The ONLY equalizer is if I shoot whatever bullet and I determine its performance for me. Anything else is just noise.
I've had freak stuff happen like that, but the next time it'll punch right through. So many little variables that contribute to terminal bullet reactions. That 168 is a good bullet typically.
jamie eaton
Well-Known Member
I shot a mule deer with 140 Winchester ballistic silvertip at 15 yards . Bullet blew both lungs out his nose , never exited found it against the opposite side hide . Bullet pedaled out but the tip was still in it . He took 5 steps .
Gday hardrock
I think you mean amax not apex
Apex fractured & fractured vrs blow up are 2 different things in my world while being the same outcome on big critters which is lack of penertration
I believe mark is working on or may have worked on the fracture component so I don't want to sound like I'm trying to down play his bullets as they work well if we use them appropriately & stay off big bone @ high velocity impact just like so many bullet brands have there weaknesses & I'll include hammers but they have covered more bases than any other brand for me hands down & while still testing you wait till the prototypes are released yep they are good I've yet to find a weakness but give me time more pills on the way
Moving on : & above was all I was going to type but keep looking @ popped up messages since hard rocks post
maybe I should have stopped there
but I've just taken my meds so I'll blame them lol Man here this place goes again
Oh but this pill has killed thousands or the critter is dead so it's not a issue well to those people just shoot what you want but please understand some people like to move forward & find a better killing pill & some of the newer pills kill way more efficiently than the great old corelox to name one good pill well on my results they have & it's why I no longer shoot them like partition, hmantel gpa , taipan etc Yes the bar has been raised since those days well that's my world results & my thoughts & why I am still searching for the holy grail
I have failed most bullets on the market in critters or @ a minimum found weaknesses (( a few new ones I've not bothered with as my time & health is not what it use to be ) , some true solids I've been unable to fail or along with the prototype hammer but I'm not done yet
Here's a bit of a snapshot of where pills have weaknesses imo these weaknesses can still & for the most part do kill but I'm not one who likes to track , do grid patterns get the dogs to follow up or wait for birds to circle etc as those are failures on what I expect a pill to be able to get done if I do my part on placement
Tips on angles especially bone don't preform well & then the overall pill design comes into play as it bonded or not also plays into this
Tip pills were ones I hated yet the accubond was a go to pill for so many applications due to consistency & the velocity window they worked well in for me yet still had some limitations, the amax was a extremely good killing pill when things went well but when it didn't bets were off yes stay off bone once again comes up that is so critical to help stop erratic results
But tips are great for a consistent product from feeding to trigger squeeze & somewhat more on opening consistently across various resistances than a hp
Hollow points have their down fall also from clogged to nosed over & erratic opening ( I believe this is also hp diameter specific ) with bergers not immune to penciling especially low resistances yes it's not only monos that pencil
the hornady BTHP that if you didn't clean the hp up you got erratic results yet put that in the crease on blesbok & springbok & around 90% bangflops to a couple steps yet come back on shoulder bone & this dropped to around 30% which was still good but then you had to look @ the failures & while small % it was a regular occurrence especially on drives & this is off some fairly substantial numbers taken not single or double digit numbers
Exposed lead tip have their issues from magazine damage to hardness softness of lead let alone jacket & type of jacket angles on bones are also a issue
Protected points dual cores or inserts have their issues
Monos a few designs that behave differently & kill differently some are natorious @ penciling just like I've seen occasionally with Berger on smaller critters
The mushroom variety tend to need more speed to kill efficiently but penertration is seldom a issue but on average these mushroom monos have smaller permanent wound channels
The wad cutter / shedding design the best I've used when those companies get it correct but watch the wad cutter type as your shank here is the key get that wrong & watch turns @ lower velocity occur on certain angles / resistance & wound channel is also relatively smaller if the wad cutter design is not correct
Penertration is one ive found to be a extremely important factor as shallow penertration gets more problems than over penertration yet I get the energy dump idea as I lived by it for years but exits are more consistent killers if you don't have penciling
more & more people are using smaller calibers on bigger critters & even though yes I'm guilty but I do believe no substitute for a bigger diameter & then you can somewhat over come the need to stay off bone eg with hornady a 243 87 gr bthp is erratic on goat shoulders where a 338 250 gr bthp has little difficulty step the 338 up to horses & it's a poor choice & need to stay behind the shoulder but when your chasing horses try staying off shoulder on running shots yes I can't with certainty & I class myself as a pretty good shot on the run so I tip my hat to the ones who can with consistency & go ahead still use your 250 grainers
I like velocity as tof takes risk out of so many things
still room for improvement on every company imo that has pills on the market to the public
It's the behind the scenes work that's going on that's trying to lessen the issues briefly mentioned above or even better stop on every pill brand weaknesses that's the fascinating one for me personally
I know we are so lucky to have so many good pills & everyone shoot what they like but if it's one thing I'd like people to consider is support the smaller companies & while the likes or Barnes, Berger , hornady , sierra, nosler etc ultimately they will not listen to guys like us as they shrug off the less than ideal results that have showed up as they are just to big to give a dam & quality is not as stringent to fine tune for even better terminal results
it's only competition between them that makes them lift the bar on new designs or they just copy or buy out a smaller company who has got some great results
Just my thoughts on them but still value what they are doing for us
For me It's knowing & understanding a pill's weaknesses that we can help lessen the likelihood of a less than ideal results but if we put our head in the sand just take your number & wait your number will be called out one day well it is for the ones like me that can't guarantee I can place that pill exactly where I want it due to animal behaviour &or angles , my shooting ability , climatic conditions etc but then again I'm not worried on my choice of pills these days I just know the bar can still be raised so I try & help where I can to get a even better killing pill that covers more bases than what we already have today , yes I'm greedy !! & probably p—s some off but I want more & believe it's out there ( yes this I know with some certainty)
But that's me & ea to their own & wish them the best no offence intended
Stay Safe & shoot straight
Sorry for long winded post & may have gone over the same thing a few times let alone unclear but my meds are really kicking in so a bit foggy @ present & accept my apology in advance it's just what I've found on my journey & what I push / show to a few that will talk /discuss & tinker
Which ultimately allows me to learn more
Yep I'm a greedy sum of B
Cheers
