**** lodge/masons oaths ****

[MN Hunter]

This link has some interesting info.

Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[britz]

ya I know I said I'd stay out, but I cant resist... lol

just some food for thought for those who translate the bible literally...

"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD" . from Deuteronomy.

This book is messed up talking about stoning unfaithful women... do you really think it is the way of God to do these things??



According to the Catholic faith... There are 7 commandments that have to do with treating other people right... only 3 about worshiping the Lord... Seems to me God puts great importance on works.

I know this is basically an argument about who has the right religion... one that no one will ever convince the other is wrong... but it can be stimulating and even fun lol!

 

[Roll-Yur-Own]

I aksed my question first. It is only a smoke screen to answer a question with a question.

Is there a reason I can't get an answer to this simple question? Bigbuck rattles of pages of scripture but wont answer a perfectly reasonable question give the thread that HE started.

Let me ask it again so there is no confusion.

Jesus came approximately 2000 years ago and the kjv in 1611. Bigbuck started this thread of stating that kjv is the ONLY TRUE WORD OF GOD. So, between the period of 2000 years ago and 1611 WHAT WAS THE TRUE WORD OF GOD?

 

[jmden]

ya I know I said I'd stay out, but I cant resist... lol

just some food for thought for those who translate the bible literally...

"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD" . from Deuteronomy.

This book is messed up talking about stoning unfaithful women... do you really think it is the way of God to do these things??



According to the Catholic faith... There are 7 commandments that have to do with treating other people right... only 3 about worshiping the Lord... Seems to me God puts great importance on works.

I know this is basically an argument about who has the right religion... one that no one will ever convince the other is wrong... but it can be stimulating and even fun lol!

Regarding following the old testament laws today:

What is so NEW about the New Testament - ChristianAnswers.Net

What does the Bible say about the Old Testament Law?

We need to understand the context in which these laws were given. The Israelites were a very rough, rebellious bunch of slaves coming out of Egypt. They already, since the exodus, had a long history of unfaithfullness to God, who had provided for their needs and demonstrated time and again his miraculous power to save them (parting of the Red Sea, water from the rock, manna from heaven, etc, etc.), yet they remained unbelievably rebellious in the light of God's saving power and grace. Sound familiar?


God gave them, through Moses, all of these laws for them to realize how serious the offenses they were committing were. Romans 3:20 states: "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become concious or sin."

God gave the amazingly rebellious Israelites the law so that they would become more concious or their sin and understand how serious it was too God. Even with this from the time law was given until the time of Christ, many Israelites, instead of keeping with the spirit of the law, found every possible 'loophole' and still lived sinful lives. God then saw that this plan to save the world through his chosen people wasn't working and sent his son Jesus, to be the ultimate and final sacrifice for sins and sent his disciples out into the world to bring the world to him (Great Commission).

In the process God established a new covenent (New Testament) based on love, faith and grace and through it establishing a much higher standard than a bunch of laws--the standard of the attitude of the heart towards God and His will. His will being that we obey him because we love him and are thankful for sacrificing his Son Jesus, ask forgiveness for our sins, accept him as Lord and Saviour of our lives and truly endeavor to live for him. It is because of that want to keep his laws in our hearts. Keeping the spirit of the law...not the letter of the law.

You will see many clear exceptions throughout the Bible to the general laws of the Old Testament even within the Old Testament. Deuteronomy 23:1 deals with folks that had cut off private parts due to pagan/idol worship practices, yet the very first recorded non-jew convert in the New Testament was the Ethiopian Eunach. God is concerned about our hearts. These all these laws were for a specific set of people in a specific situation.

Jesus himself tells how he came to fufill all the law in Matt 5:17 with the clear intent when taken in proper context again, that he gives it it's full meaning, emphasizing commitment to the spirit of the law rather than mere external acknowledgement and obedicance. Jesus warned the Pharisees (and the jews that followed them) again and again and does it again in this passage about the sham of keepingn laws externally, to gain merti before God, while breaking them inwardly and against following the letter of the law (WORKS as has been discussed before) while ignoring its spirit. Jesus here clearly repudiates the Pharisees interpretation of the Law and their view of righteousness by works--still a very prevalent thought today. We cannot earn salvation...it is the work of God, the gift of God that no one can boast.

One study bible (The Apologetics Study Bible) has this commentary on Deuteronomy 23: 1 and 2

"23:1 This apparent discrimination is based on the
principle that a physical defect is analogous to spiritual
imperfection (cp. Lv 21:16-23). The defect, in this in-
stance, has to do with reproductive capacity, the lack
of which was considered to be a curse. Jesus spoke of
"eunuchs who have made themselves that way because
of the kingdom of heaven" (Mt 19:12), removing the
traditional religious stigma from those who lack re-
productive capability or who refrain from utilizing it
(depending on whether or not one takes His expression
in the literal sense). Christianity's first recorded non-
Jewish convert was such a person (Ac 8:26-38).

23:2 The exclusion of an illegitimate child from the
assembly is related to the previous instructions having to
do with irregular sexual matters. The denial of full
fellowship has nothing to do with the personal spirituality
of the individual; it is the community as a whole that
is in view. The prohibition illustrates the uncompromising
standards of the Lord affecting how, and under what
conditions, persons may enter His presence.
Physical traits reflecting what is normal and proper are
symbolic of the required spiritual state."

In the context of what God was dealing with with the Israelites at that time, this was the tact He apparently felt necessary to take regarding this situation.
The 'assembly' is talking about coming into the temple itself and how holy a place and how Holy God was and how serious sin is to him. We need to be very careful lifting passages like this to make our point one way or the other without tremendous study to understand the context. The Bible is all at once simple in it's message of hope and redemption, yet very complex in many passages, made more so for us that do not understand Jewish history or culture as well as we might.

Here's an article from answersingenesis.org regarding one time Jesus himself took exception to the law. You will see that Christ is much more concerned aobut someone's heart than he is about the following of the external law--a concept that many Israelites never seemed to get.

Reading through the Old Testament, you end up feeling sorry for God in a way with what he had to put up with the people he created to commune with him, especially his chosen people, the Israelites.

If you have kids at home that cause you grief due to their rebelliousness when you only have the best intentions for them, knowing what is right for them and providing them the best you can so they can make those right choices...you might just start to get a feel for the tip of the iceberg of how God might have felt then...and now.

But we have unconditional patient love for our children, wanting them to come back into full fellowship with us after something has gone wrong, right? Hmm...I wonder where that came from?


Doesn't Jesus contradict Old Testament teachings by not stoning the adulteress, which was commanded?

by Roger Patterson, AiG–U.S.

November 24, 2008


Layman
Keywords

• accuracy-of-scripture
• biblical-contradiction
• contradictions-series
• jesus-christ

Contradictions







A web-only series tackling the supposed contradictions in God's Word

• Introduction
• Slaughter at Jericho
• A Righteous Lie
• Seeds of Dissent
• Cut in Half
• See all

Exodus 20:14
You shall not commit adultery
​

Deuteronomy 5:18
You shall not commit adultery.
​

Leviticus 20:10
The man who commits adultery with another man's wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death.
​

John 8:3–11
Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?"
​

This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear. So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
​

Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, "Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?"
​

She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more."
​

Deuteronomy 17:6
Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness.
​

Deuteronomy 19:15
One witness shall not rise against a man concerning any iniquity or any sin that he commits; by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established.
​

In the passage referred to, a woman is brought to Jesus by the religious leaders who were interested in trapping Him in a difficult situation. Many apparent witnesses have been found to condemn this woman who has been caught in the very act of adultery. According to the laws given to Moses and laid out in Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, adultery was a sin punishable by death—for the man and the woman! It is interesting to note that only the woman was brought before Jesus. This exposes the motives of the religious leaders. They were not interested in justice, but in accusing Jesus so they might discredit His authority.
One of the requirements of the administration of justice laid out in the Mosaic Law was that there must be agreement between two or three witnesses (Deuteronomy 17:6, 19:15) to condemn the accused. Jesus also faced this same standard in the trial that was held before Caiaphas (Matthew 26:57–60). When the witnesses were not in agreement, they were dismissed until two that were in agreement could be found.
After the leaders present the accused woman to Jesus, He stoops and writes something on the ground, ignoring the leaders. Though Scripture does not record what He wrote, some have speculated it was the Ten Commandments. Regardless, the leaders were convicted of their own sinfulness when Jesus asked them to cast the first stone. As they walk away one by one, the woman is left standing alone. With no witnesses to accuse her, Jesus is justified in letting her go. He is not violating the Mosaic Law referenced by the Jewish leaders as there are no witnesses to provide testimony to condemn her.
Jesus exercises grace in His treatment of the woman without violating the letter of the Law. As God in the flesh, Jesus also has the authority to forgive sins (Matthew 9:6). It is clear from the text and a proper understanding of the application of Mosaic Law that the contradiction is apparent, and not real.

Regarding some other supposed 'contradictions', please see:
Get Answers - Answers in Genesis

Here's an article on Jesus and the infallibility of scripture:
Jesus Christ on the infallibility of Scripture Jesus clearly believed the old testament was historical fact.

Getting into the Catholic faith? Are Catholics Christian?

Are Catholics Christian?​

Question: Are Catholics Christians? If not, why? This is not a negative question. I desire to honestly know if Catholics are considered to be part of the Christian faith.
Answer: This is a most important question anybody can ask. Am I a Christian? Or am I a Christian in name only? Do I have a living relationship with Christ?
Well then, who has the right to call himself Christian? Like the Jews of old, people still fool themselves in thinking that they are right with God because of some ritual (like circumcision or baptism) or because of their heritage ("I was born into a Christian family and attend a Christian church").
According to the Bible, a true Christian is chosen by God before the foundation of the world, redeemed and forgiven by the blood of Christ, illuminated by the Spirit, knows and obeys the truth of the Gospel. A Christian is someone who trusts in Christ for his salvation, and gives all praise to God for His grace. (Please read Ephesians 1:3-13).
Does a Roman Catholic fit this description? Superficially he does. He believes in Christ and speaks about the grace of God. But if he follows the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, regretfully I must say that he does not really believe in Christ nor does he know the grace of God. Please allow me to explain.
The Gospel teaches that "a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Romans 3:28). God regards a person just and righteous who trusts wholeheartedly in Jesus, and who does not attempt to win God's favour by his imperfect obedience of the Law. Sadly, Roman theology has rejected God's way of salvation. To faith, Rome adds a set of deeds (many of which are human inventions) and curses anyone who dares to completely trust in Christ alone for salvation. 'If anyone says that the faith that justifies is nothing else but trust in the divine mercy, which pardons sins because of Christ, or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified, let him be anathema.' (Council of Trent, session 6, cannon 12).
We firmly believe that our sins are pardoned because of the sacrifice of Christ alone. Rome would have us perform acts of penance and suffer in purgatory to expiate our sins. The Bible proclaims Christ, the Priest who offered himself once for all. Rome would have us apply to her priests who daily offer their sacrifices on the altar. The Bible proclaims Christ as the only Mediator, Rome would have us apply to other mediators, like Mary, the saints and the church.
Again, we assert that we are "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24). The Bible clearly defines what grace is: "to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt" (Romans 4:4) Grace is unmerited favour, as opposed to the merit of works. Rome outwardly teaches that we are justified by grace. However the "grace" of Catholicism is a very strange species. The Catholic Church states that "we can then merit for ourselves...the graces needed...for the attainment of eternal life" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2010). To merit grace is a contradiction in terms. Rome would not allow you to receive the gift of salvation with a grateful heart, but would have you work like a slave to merit it.
We are forced to conclude that the message of Rome is a different gospel. It is a false gospel. I say this with much sadness and concern for the multitudes of Catholics who blindly follow this false system. I must warn every Catholic that Christ is of no avail to you unless you relinquish any confidence in yourself and your works, and in every other creature. Faith must be in Christ - alone!
Having said that, I gladly add the following caveat. There may be some nominal Catholics who, either out of ignorance or willful rejection of Catholic doctrine, truly trust in Christ alone for their salvation. They are Christians and really belong to God.
The book of Revelation describes a deceptive and false religious system named Babylon. It is not my intention here to discuss the exact nature of this Babylon - the principle remains the same. Some Christians are trapped inside this deceptive system and God gives them a specific command: "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Revelation 18:4). Thank God that even in Babylon, God has His people. If you are a Christian entrapped in the false religious system of Rome, hear God's calling and come out of her. You will experience liberty and life like never before.

See: Bible and Theology Answers - ChristianAnswers.Net

 

[jmden]

Wow, what a antisemetic and anti catholic post.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

If it wasn't for the Jews you would not have an old testament and if not for the Catholics you would not have a new testament. It wasn't like the kjv is original text?

Those Jews are a bunch of rebelious slaves.....just like them negros right?

Jews have the highest IQ of any race of people on the planet. I bet if I gathered 100 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

How could you possibly get anti-semetic out of what I wrote? There was certainly nothing anti-semetic about what I wrote. Why are you on such a crusade to paint me as an anti-semite? Have you not understood a thing I have written?

Often, it is clear you are not willing to engage in a true discussion as is obvious by your very immature willingness to call me and others names, ect. and not carefully read many posts and carefully respond to many posts.

Roll, I cannot follow your logic on many of these issues. You sling around names and call people names left and right and do little to back up what you are saying and have done next to nothing to reply and correct my many statements regrding your posts.

You are quickly losing any credibility in this disscussion.

Anti-catholic? Hardly. Again, Roll, I'm not anti-anybody. There's no reason to be. YOU JUST DON'T GET THAT DO YOU? I am pro-Jesus and doing what I can in my feeble body to glorify Him. If you are saved by works, as a true reading of the Catholic faith would say, you do not need Jesus. That is not anti-catholic. That is pro-Jesus, pro-son of God who came to sacrifice himself for bcuase of our sins.

Roll, if you're a catholic and are saved because of your works, then what do you need Jesus for? Why did Jesus die on the cross for your sins? You can do it on your own, right? You don't need Jesus. You are saving yourself, right? Did Jesus need to die at all then? Do you see what I mean. The idea that we are saved by our work (that we save ourselves) totally removes any need for Christ to have come to this earth. Make sure you are following Christ and not human traditions like the Pharisees.

There are many catholics who are not following the true teachings of the bible, especially when it comes to being save by grace through faith and not works.

It sounds to me that you are Catholic. Defend your faith in Rome with a well researched and understandable and mature discussion!

Are you also a Jew? Is that why you are so sensitive to this issue?

Jon

 

[britz]

Hey Jmden, I'm a little busy but I had to take the time to read your little blurp. Wow! that was really something. Hey, if it works for you... so be it. LOL!

I did a little looking into what you were printing. I especially liked this little statement from Roman Catholicism - Is it Christian? - ChristianAnswers.Net referring to whether or not Catholics are Christians.

Conclusion

There are undoubtedly true believers in Christ in the Roman Catholic Church. But the Catholic theological and ecclesiastical system, in spite of holding to some essential Christian truths, is a false system. It leads people to trust in the church, or in themselves, for salvation. It places the church's dogmas on par with the Bible. It proclaims false views of God, of man, of sin, and of salvation.

Protestant Christians should love Catholic people, pray for them, and seek to lead them to the Christ of the Bible for salvation, and then urge them to leave the Roman Catholic church to join a congregation that is true to God's Word where they can learn and grow in fellowship with other believers.

Not at all biased... not one bit-lol!

It always helps to look at where people are coming from when arguing w/ them.


Just out of curiosity... If they can talk about the context inwhich the old testament was written... what about the context in which the KJV was written???
What about the context in which Jesus lived???

Remember... it was the church that persecuted people for believing that Earth wasn't the center of the universe...

They used to think the world was flat

Many still don't believe in the whole Pre-historic earth period.

Just saying.

Mark.

 

[jmden]

"Remember... it was the church that persecuted people for believing that Earth wasn't the center of the universe...

They used to think the world was flat

Many still don't believe in the whole Pre-historic earth period. "

Unfortunately and still today, when many refer to 'the church', they mean the Roman Catholic church. It was the Roman Catholic church that persecuted as you state above. The humans in the Roman Catholic church and the Catholic church itself are not the standard...the bible is... Christ is. No where in the bible does it say that the earth is the center of the universe.

Astronomy And The Bible talks about flat earth as well. These concepts are NOT derived from clear biblical teaching.

Some verses talking about the earth...

1 Chronicles 16:30: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable."

Psalm 93:1: "Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ..."

Psalm 96:10: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ..."

Psalm 104:5: "Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken."

Isaiah 45:18: "...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast..."

Do these say that the earth is the center of the universe. No.

As mentioned earlier, the catholic church clearly does not follow very clear and important scriptures in several areas, putting their teachings on par the bible.

Once this kind of thing starts to happen, where does it end? You can start to make the Bible say whatever you want, can you not?

We must make sure that we don't take preconceived ideas to the Bible, but let the Bible speak in its entirety. And on areas we don't understand?...be patient. Many times throughout history the Bible was said to be wrong about this or that and then new information surfaced showing the Bible to be correct.

However, it is interesting to note:

Our galaxy--at the center of the universe after all!

Not sure what you mean by prehistoric. That typically means the 'billions' of years before 'modern man' was on scene, correct? I'd like to know what you mean by that an where you are going with it before I attempt a feeble explanation.

Edit: Context of the KJV and Jesus? Well, yes, context is always important to try to understand what is going on in a text. That's fairly self-evident. I guess I'm not sure of your point there.

 

[Chas1]

jmden, in your post to roll yur own you said "It sounds to me that you are Catholic" I don't think it was your intention but I'll air it so folks don't have an incorrect perception but, are you stereotyping all Catholics as being like roll yur own? If not...that's good to know. If so then I respect your opinion.

 

[Roll-Yur-Own]

Jmden, you are not anti Catholic or Antisemetic. You just think they are going to hell????

You base your beliefs on protestant scripture that is only 400 years old and comes directly from Jewish and Catholic scripture.

You do not have your own scripture. How can you retranslate this stuff 1600 years later (and way older with old testament scripture) and say you are correct and they are not?

That is like rewritting romeo and juliet and saying shakespear was wrong.

Do you not see the flaw in your logic?

Evangelical Christianity is designed to put fear into people to get them to conform. They do this so they can make money.

If I'm wrong then how come the big names like pat robinson and ted haggard are multi millionaires flying around on private jets?

How many Rabbis, Catholic Priests, or other clergy have as much money? Not many.

Yes, I have great anger toward your kind. I know you truly believe what your taught so my anger should not be directed at you but rather at the leadership. And, I apologise for calling names. It was inappropriate.

But, I believe in a kind and gentle Jesus and that is what I preach.

 

[roaddog1m]

So then what about those of us who have killed someone either in the military or in law enforcement? Are we not going to heaven? Looking back, I've also broken most of the ten commandments at one time or another. Some several times! I can honestly say that I've never killed anyone who wasn't actively trying to kill me. Am I still going to hell? Will the meek really enherit the earth. I guess I just don't want to believe that.

On a side note: Hasn't anyone noticed that Bigbuck is playing you guys like a harp. He just waits for things to settle down and people to start to agree or agree to disagree. Then he plucks a string and watches as the fires erupt. We'd all be better off not to let him manipulate us into his trap. My guess is that he doesn't have anyone around the house to argue with and more than likely doesn't even hunt, let alone have a rifle.

Some thoughts.

Tom

 

[jmden]

So then what about those of us who have killed someone either in the military or in law enforcement? Are we not going to heaven? Looking back, I've also broken most of the ten commandments at one time or another. Some several times! I can honestly say that I've never killed anyone who wasn't actively trying to kill me. Am I still going to hell? Will the meek really enherit the earth. I guess I just don't want to believe that.

On a side note: Hasn't anyone noticed that Bigbuck is playing you guys like a harp. He just waits for things to settle down and people to start to agree or agree to disagree. Then he plucks a string and watches as the fires erupt. We'd all be better off not to let him manipulate us into his trap. My guess is that he doesn't have anyone around the house to argue with and more than likely doesn't even hunt, let alone have a rifle.

Some thoughts.

Tom

Another article from answersingenesis.org --


Contradictions: A Time to Kill?


Is it okay to kill, like David killing Goliath or Joshua eliminating Canaanites? Or is killing forbidden?

by Roger Patterson, AiG–U.S.

December 29, 2008


Layman
Keywords

• author-roger-patterson
• biblical-contradiction
• contradictions-series
• death
• morality

Contradictions

A web-only series tackling the supposed contradictions in God's Word

• Introduction
• A Man of Many Wives
• Counting Offspring
• Two Ages at Once
• Full of Meaning
• See all

Exodus 20:13
"You shall not murder."​

Exodus 22:2
"If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed."​

Leviticus 24:15–16
"Whoever curses his God shall bear his sin. And whoever blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death."​

Leviticus 24:17
"Whoever kills any man shall surely be put to death."​

1 Samuel 17:50
So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone, and struck the Philistine and killed him.​

In order to answer this apparent contradiction, we must make a distinction between killing someone and committing murder. Murder is the unlawful taking of a life, while killing may be lawful or unlawful. The establishment of capital punishment actually extends back to the Noahic Covenant when God declared, "Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man's brother I will require the life of man. Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed; for in the image of God He made man" (Genesis 9:5–6).
Even before this, Cain was afraid of the other members of his family seeking to kill him after he had murdered his brother Abel (Genesis 4:13–15).1 In the cases outlined in Scripture, taking the life of another in the name of justice was not murder. The question poses a false dilemma in that killing does not have to be always right or always wrong—God has provided qualifications.
Because man is made in the image of God, the death of a human is not taken lightly. In the laws given to Israel through Moses, those sins that were worthy of death were detailed. Leviticus 19 is one such place where these commands are given. Since these are commands directly from God and God cannot lie, we understand that there must be no contradiction in the commands. Those who committed sexual sins were to be justly killed, but only upon the clear affirmation of their crime established by witnesses.
As the author of the first five books of the Bible, Moses would not have written contradictory ideas. If we allow for killing to be wrong in every case, when a person carried out capital punishment, as commanded by God, they would have to be killed for the taking of a life. Then their life would be demanded, and so on until humanity was left with one. Extending the logic allows us to see how absurd the claim of a contradiction truly is.
The Bible provides many circumstances under which the taking of a life is legally allowed by Scripture. Killing another person in an act of self defense (Exodus 22:2) was permitted with no consequences. There are examples of God calling the people to war against other nations to punish them for their sins. When Joshua led the children of Israel into the Promised Land, God commanded the Israelites to utterly destroy the idolatrous peoples who inhabited the land (Deuteronomy 20:16–17). A list of their sins can be found in Leviticus 18, including incest, murdering children, and so on. When God called Israel to war against those in the Promised Land, then He was permitting the killing in this situation, making men His agents of justice, as in the case with capital punishment.
The killing of Goliath by the young David was, likewise, justified in the eyes of God. In fact, David was angered by the way that Goliath blasphemed God and met him in battle. David did not trust in himself, but in the Lord to deliver Goliath into his hands. This is an example of continuance of the war the Israelites had been engaged in with the inhabitants of the Promised Land, as directed by God.
God repeatedly chose war and capital punishment as a way to bring judgment on peoples and individuals who were acting in defiance of His will by doing great sin. He ordained the killing as a punishment to accomplish His purposes in the world.
This should give an idea of seriousness of sin. In the eyes of a perfect and holy God, one sin is worthy of death (Genesis 2:17). Since we are all sinners, we are all under the death sentence already. In essence, we are all on "death row," and those who murder or do other terrible sins as described in Scripture, simply had their wait on "death row" shortened.
God hates sin, especially those that lead to any situation where a human life is lost. His holy nature and subsequent hatred of sin make the taking of a life acceptable only in the rarest of cases. We should never seek to minimize the taking of a life—a life made in the image of God. Remember that taking a life for justifiable reasons is only necessary because we live in a world of sin. The perfect creation would not have required death for any reason.

 

[jmden]

jmden, in your post to roll yur own you said "It sounds to me that you are Catholic" I don't think it was your intention but I'll air it so folks don't have an incorrect perception but, are you stereotyping all Catholics as being like roll yur own? If not...that's good to know. If so then I respect your opinion.

Not at all. Roll has indicated that he has the Catholic bible and has given indication in one other place I believe about following Catholic teachings. That is all. Someone else, britz I believe, brought up the idea of catholicism and I was responding to that as if a Catholic closely follows the human doctines of Rome, they will be clearly outside biblical teaching.

The Apostle Paul, in 2 Corinthians 10:4,5 says -- The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obediant to God.

2 Timothy 3: 16 -- All Scripture is God-breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

ALL scripture--not just the parts we want to use...

 

[Chas1]

jmden, Thanks for responding. As I said I didn't think you were and just wanted it aired. I have no dog in this debate so I'm going to go back to reading respondents views as they debate here. Take Care.

 

[jmden]

Jmden, you are not anti Catholic or Antisemetic. You just think they are going to hell????

But didn't you just tell me that I was an anti-semite and anti-catholic? Are you flip-flopping now?

I can't say 'they', as a group of people are going to hell. Good grief, my friend, this has already been discussed. Only God knows the hearts of human. But it is clear in scripture that those who reject God will go to hell. Don't reject him. He has given his life for you. How will you respond?

You base your beliefs on protestant scripture that is only 400 years old and comes directly from Jewish and Catholic scripture.

How many times have I already told you that I'm not a KJV only person? The KJV is a useful translation and I have little problem with it. There are many great translations out there. I would look to the English Standard Version (ESV) and the New International Version (NIV) for a good general reading version first.

You do not have your own scripture. How can you retranslate this stuff 1600 years later (and way older with old testament scripture) and say you are correct and they are not?

You're right. I don't have my own scripture. You can own something like that. It is God's scripture. Who (what version you mean?) am I saying is not correct? I don't believe I've said a particular version isn't correct, have I? Are you mistaking me with someone else that I've clearly distanced myself from in this regard?

That is like rewritting romeo and juliet and saying shakespear was wrong.

Do you not see the flaw in your logic?

Point it out for me, please.

Evangelical Christianity is designed to put fear into people to get them to conform. They do this so they can make money.

Let's take a quick look at Jesus 12 disciples. Did following Jesus make any of them rich? Bring them comfort, etc.? No, instead they were routinely beaten, mocked, ridiculed and killed. They bore the cross of Christ a cross that has nothing to do with earthly riches. Roll, I don't know where you get this stuff. Again, you're taking what you want and are not willing to closely investigate the standard--Christ himself revealed to us through the scriptures.

Do some christian ministries so-called abuse their position to make money? You bet...and Christ will hold them accountable for this awful sin! But I would submit to you that a ministry 'so-called' that does this is anything but truly Christian.

Our standard cannot be represented by any human as any human is a fallen sinful being and the words they say must be measured carefully agains the ruler of Scripture. All will be found lacking in someway. All of us will be found lacking in many, horrible ways. That's why we need Christ and his sacrifice that can forgive our sins. It is the only way as so clearly taught in scripture.

If I'm wrong then how come the big names like pat robinson and ted haggard are multi millionaires flying around on private jets?

See above. I don't know about these indiviuals to the extent you detail, but that doesn't matter. God will judge accordingly. I don't know the hearts of those men. Only God does.

I'm not trying to make any money here, in fact I'm probaly losing money spending so much time on this here, but that is not important.

How many Rabbis, Catholic Priests, or other clergy have as much money? Not many.

1 Timothy 6:10 -- For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

We need to make sure our hearts are on the right scriptural track regarding money. It's a struggle we all have, myself as much as any man.


Yes, I have great anger toward your kind. I know you truly believe what your taught so my anger should not be directed at you but rather at the leadership. And, I apologise for calling names. It was inappropriate.

Thank you for the apology. It is accepted.

Roll, I am repeating directly from the Bible, over and over again. I certainly hope there is nothing I have said in my feeble attempt to show the plan God has for his creation that is not scriptural. Your fight is not with me. Your fight is with God. Only he can show you this.

Ephesians 6:12 -- For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

But, I believe in a kind and gentle Jesus and that is what I preach.

Yes, Jesus is very kind and gentle, but that is only part of God. He also HATES sin and will punish it justly. Endeavor to come to know him and obey him and live in his love!

Jon

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