We all have bad days and perhaps that is what happened with this smith while he was doing your gun work . I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't use him in future builds though . There are different class' of threads and how they match with each other that is why as an apprentice mill-wright you go to school on machining as with gun-smiting you do also . I have seen a lot of people that believed they could cut threads but hadn't learned how to properly and others that thought you just grab a tap and die but didn't realize you need to relieve the last threads cut with taps and dies for them to bottom out and fit snug against the mating surfaces so without seeing the threads it's just guessing what went on to cause them to come loose . It sure is interesting to read these articles as there is some good information and food for thought here .
Loc-tite on custom muzzle brake
- Thread starter Sending156s
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ntsqd
Well-Known Member
From my experience in many unrelated fields the odds of a threaded fastener staying tight in the presence of high frequency vibration directly depends on how square those mating surfaces are to each other, what the thread fit class is, and how tight the assembly was torqued. Mr. Murphy being the guy that he is, you can count on the threads doing the opposite of what you want if any one element of the whole assembly is off. Products like Lock-tite are for situations when everything isn't perfect or wasn't designed by John Browning (who, even though he used them felt that threads had no business being on a firearm).
Sending156s
Well-Known Member
Sable, that makes perfect sense to me about the shoulders matching up. I spent a career in the drilling industry and it's the same thing with drill pipe. I had someone with an awesome reputation that was going to build the rifle for me, but they couldn't be sure of a deadline for practice before hunting season. They were honest. If I can get everything worked out where it makes a good hunting rifle i'm Going to change action, when it needs rebarreled. If I can't get everything worked out i'll Just go ahead and do it. I have a A3-5 adj & very good glass so i'll a big part of cost won't be lost. Though, in retirement years the finances are tighter than before.
Huggy
Well-Known Member
In all my years as an aircraft mechanic dealing with precision fitting parts involving threads as well as dealing with many kinds of precision parts in various lines of work, I can appreciate the concern of having a muzzle brake shooting loose at the most inopportune time.
In aviation we also used various strengths of thread locking compounds but for the most part, if components could NOT be allowed to loosen and/or fall off, risking both craft and occupants, we would use stainless steel safety wire of various thicknesses depending on strength requirements and location of components.
We would also use cotter pins, depending on the application. Everything from tiny to big old honkin' hunks of metal.
Since neither of those ideas would be aesthetically appealing on a sleek rifle, when discussing muzzle Brake installations, I am perplexed as to why the manufacturers wouldn't use a threading on barrel and component (be it a brake, suppressor or what have you) that was the mirror opposite of the barrel lands/grooves twist?
With a barrel using a Right Hand twist when viewed from the shooters end and the brake (as in this discussion) also having a Right Hand twist but when looking at the muzzle end, theoretically the spinning gasses exiting the bore and striking the brake slat faces with tremendous pressure and vigorous impulse would impart an incredible amount of twisting torque/force which, to my line of thinking, would essentially create a "slapping" effect and impulse which would work towards unscrewing the brake, suppressor, etc.
I've seen this phenomenon happen twice over the years. Once to me and once to a fellow shooter. My Buddy launched his suppressor downrange because his can (I don't recall the manufacturer) was merely screwed onto the 1/2"X28tpi muzzle threads and in my case it was a "booster" from my SA M1919A1.
Neither instance caused any damage to the components launched and no irreparable harm was done to our Male egos outside of a bit of embarrassment and joshing from our friends watching from nearby.
So, why don't manufacturers make their muzzle threads opposite the turn of the rifling so the expelled gasses will, in effect, help to INCREASE the torque of any attached device?
I can understand the impulse amount might not be all that much in individual and incremental pulses, but over time and with repeated blows it becomes cumulative and could (has?) resulted in muzzle devices being inadvertently sent downrange. (BTW I'm aware that some of the higher end suppressor products are designed to be used with a matching muzzle Brake and locking mechanism to prevent this from happening as well as maintaining as near as possible a repeatable performance for subsequent rounds fired after removal and installations.)
Has this phenomenon been addressed by the gun and accessory industry and found to not be a big deal or is it a case of "we've been doing it this way for eons and no Johnny Come Lately is gonna tell US what is right or wrong?"
Inquiring minds wanna know.
Thanks for reading my rant.
Overnout
In aviation we also used various strengths of thread locking compounds but for the most part, if components could NOT be allowed to loosen and/or fall off, risking both craft and occupants, we would use stainless steel safety wire of various thicknesses depending on strength requirements and location of components.
We would also use cotter pins, depending on the application. Everything from tiny to big old honkin' hunks of metal.
Since neither of those ideas would be aesthetically appealing on a sleek rifle, when discussing muzzle Brake installations, I am perplexed as to why the manufacturers wouldn't use a threading on barrel and component (be it a brake, suppressor or what have you) that was the mirror opposite of the barrel lands/grooves twist?
With a barrel using a Right Hand twist when viewed from the shooters end and the brake (as in this discussion) also having a Right Hand twist but when looking at the muzzle end, theoretically the spinning gasses exiting the bore and striking the brake slat faces with tremendous pressure and vigorous impulse would impart an incredible amount of twisting torque/force which, to my line of thinking, would essentially create a "slapping" effect and impulse which would work towards unscrewing the brake, suppressor, etc.
I've seen this phenomenon happen twice over the years. Once to me and once to a fellow shooter. My Buddy launched his suppressor downrange because his can (I don't recall the manufacturer) was merely screwed onto the 1/2"X28tpi muzzle threads and in my case it was a "booster" from my SA M1919A1.
Neither instance caused any damage to the components launched and no irreparable harm was done to our Male egos outside of a bit of embarrassment and joshing from our friends watching from nearby.
So, why don't manufacturers make their muzzle threads opposite the turn of the rifling so the expelled gasses will, in effect, help to INCREASE the torque of any attached device?
I can understand the impulse amount might not be all that much in individual and incremental pulses, but over time and with repeated blows it becomes cumulative and could (has?) resulted in muzzle devices being inadvertently sent downrange. (BTW I'm aware that some of the higher end suppressor products are designed to be used with a matching muzzle Brake and locking mechanism to prevent this from happening as well as maintaining as near as possible a repeatable performance for subsequent rounds fired after removal and installations.)
Has this phenomenon been addressed by the gun and accessory industry and found to not be a big deal or is it a case of "we've been doing it this way for eons and no Johnny Come Lately is gonna tell US what is right or wrong?"
Inquiring minds wanna know.
Thanks for reading my rant.
Overnout
ntsqd
Well-Known Member
Not to provoke a silly argument or be contrary, but when was the last time that you encountered LH threads in anything common? (You MOPAR & Ford Courier owners with original wheel studs don't count.) Any more it seems like they're relegated nearly exclusively to use only in adjusting mechanisms that have opposing RH threads as well. Turnbuckles and things like that. I'm sure they're out there, but I'm blanking on where they might be.
Huggy
Well-Known Member
In all my years as an aircraft mechanic dealing with precision fitting parts involving threads as well as dealing with many kinds of precision parts in various lines of work, I can appreciate the concern of having a muzzle brake shooting loose at the most inopportune time.
In aviation we also used various strengths of thread locking compounds but for the most part, if components could NOT be allowed to loosen and/or fall off, risking both craft and occupants, we would use stainless steel safety wire of various thicknesses depending on strength requirements and location of components.
We would also use cotter pins, depending on the application. Everything from tiny to big old honkin' hunks of metal.
Since neither of those ideas would be aesthetically appealing on a sleek rifle, when discussing muzzle Brake installations, I am perplexed as to why the manufacturers wouldn't use a threading on barrel and component (be it a brake, suppressor or what have you) that was the mirror opposite of the barrel lands/grooves twist?
With a barrel using a Right Hand twist when viewed from the shooters end and the brake (as in this discussion) also having a Right Hand twist but when looking at the muzzle end, theoretically the spinning gasses exiting the bore and striking the brake slat faces with tremendous pressure and vigorous impulse would impart an incredible amount of twisting torque/force which, to my line of thinking, would essentially create a "slapping" effect and impulse which would work towards unscrewing the brake, suppressor, etc.
I've seen this phenomenon happen twice over the years. Once to me and once to a fellow shooter. My Buddy launched his suppressor downrange because his can (I don't recall the manufacturer) was merely cinched and screwed onto the 1/2"X28tpi muzzle threads and in my case it was a "booster" from my SA M1919A1.
Neither instance caused any damage to the components launched and no irreparable harm was done to our Male egos outside of a bit of embarrassment and joshing from our friends watching from nearby.
So, why don't manufacturers make their muzzle threads opposite the turn of the rifling so the expelled gasses will, in effect, help to INCREASE the torque of any attached device?
I can understand the impulse amount might not be all that much in individual and incremental pulses, but over time and with repeated blows it becomes cumulative and could (has?) resulted in muzzle devices being inadvertently sent downrange. (BTW I'm aware that some of the higher end suppressor products are designed to be used with a matching muzzle Brake and locking mechanism to prevent this from happening as well as maintaining as near as possible a repeatable performance for subsequent rounds fired after removal and installations.)
Has this phenomenon been addressed by the gun and accessory industry and found to not be a big deal or is it a case of "we've been doing it this way for eons and no Johnny Come Lately is gonna tell US what is right or wrong?"
Inquiring minds wanna know.
Thanks for reading my rant.
Overnout
In aviation we also used various strengths of thread locking compounds but for the most part, if components could NOT be allowed to loosen and/or fall off, risking both craft and occupants, we would use stainless steel safety wire of various thicknesses depending on strength requirements and location of components.
We would also use cotter pins, depending on the application. Everything from tiny to big old honkin' hunks of metal.
Since neither of those ideas would be aesthetically appealing on a sleek rifle, when discussing muzzle Brake installations, I am perplexed as to why the manufacturers wouldn't use a threading on barrel and component (be it a brake, suppressor or what have you) that was the mirror opposite of the barrel lands/grooves twist?
With a barrel using a Right Hand twist when viewed from the shooters end and the brake (as in this discussion) also having a Right Hand twist but when looking at the muzzle end, theoretically the spinning gasses exiting the bore and striking the brake slat faces with tremendous pressure and vigorous impulse would impart an incredible amount of twisting torque/force which, to my line of thinking, would essentially create a "slapping" effect and impulse which would work towards unscrewing the brake, suppressor, etc.
I've seen this phenomenon happen twice over the years. Once to me and once to a fellow shooter. My Buddy launched his suppressor downrange because his can (I don't recall the manufacturer) was merely cinched and screwed onto the 1/2"X28tpi muzzle threads and in my case it was a "booster" from my SA M1919A1.
Neither instance caused any damage to the components launched and no irreparable harm was done to our Male egos outside of a bit of embarrassment and joshing from our friends watching from nearby.
So, why don't manufacturers make their muzzle threads opposite the turn of the rifling so the expelled gasses will, in effect, help to INCREASE the torque of any attached device?
I can understand the impulse amount might not be all that much in individual and incremental pulses, but over time and with repeated blows it becomes cumulative and could (has?) resulted in muzzle devices being inadvertently sent downrange. (BTW I'm aware that some of the higher end suppressor products are designed to be used with a matching muzzle Brake and locking mechanism to prevent this from happening as well as maintaining as near as possible a repeatable performance for subsequent rounds fired after removal and installations.)
Has this phenomenon been addressed by the gun and accessory industry and found to not be a big deal or is it a case of "we've been doing it this way for eons and no Johnny Come Lately is gonna tell US what is right or wrong?"
Inquiring minds wanna know.
Thanks for reading my rant.
Overnout
Huggy
Well-Known Member
That is what I'm interested in. Obviously one person isn't going to change the industry so it may be a case of fighting windmills, if you catch my drift.
It may or may not be a case of a better mousetrap. I don't know, honestly, but the idea sure sounds plausible.
My (long) point was IF it can be easily mitigated, why not do it or as I mentioned, is it a case of it being done one way for so long it isn't going to change?
Overnout
gunmunkey
Active Member
My experience is that guys struggle cutting left hand threads properly due to lack of practice. Of course, if you were installing several brakes a week you'd probably get proficient at it.
ntsqd
Well-Known Member
I too have never had a compensator or brake work loose. Though I don't shoot as much as some with them. Most of those that I have came with a heavy Belleville spring which has a locking function even if not really designed/intended to do that. A friend calls them "Loudenators" and I have to agree. I've taken most of them off as those rifles really don't recoil enough to matter.
But for the sake of the topic, a trick that I've seen is to use nylon construction string tied thru a regular nut, which is then threaded onto a bolt. This tended to favor the bigger & coarser threads. I've also seen this done with dental floss. As you might guess this is for finer and smaller threads. Not sure how you'd use this trick with a brake, but I thot it worth mentioning.
Old School desert racers used to apply 3M Super Weather Strip Adhesive to the exposed threads of a bolt and the side of the nut. Likewise some of the old school drag racers that I know talk about using finger nail polish in the threads. All of this was done really before Lock-tite type products became common.
Used to be that you could buy a locking bolt that had a small blind hole drilled in the threads. There would be a pellet of nylon in that hole, but these days they all come with a "dry-patch" of locking material bonded to the threads.
But for the sake of the topic, a trick that I've seen is to use nylon construction string tied thru a regular nut, which is then threaded onto a bolt. This tended to favor the bigger & coarser threads. I've also seen this done with dental floss. As you might guess this is for finer and smaller threads. Not sure how you'd use this trick with a brake, but I thot it worth mentioning.
Old School desert racers used to apply 3M Super Weather Strip Adhesive to the exposed threads of a bolt and the side of the nut. Likewise some of the old school drag racers that I know talk about using finger nail polish in the threads. All of this was done really before Lock-tite type products became common.
Used to be that you could buy a locking bolt that had a small blind hole drilled in the threads. There would be a pellet of nylon in that hole, but these days they all come with a "dry-patch" of locking material bonded to the threads.
Sending156s
Well-Known Member
Update: I followed the gunsmiths advice at Bass Pro that repaired the bolt assembly and didn't do anything except tighten. It's been wet weather & only fired 40 rounds working up loads. It's holding steady through those. I think he is right in that with everything else wrong maybe it wasn't tightened properly before shipping.
* Berger seating test with 190 VLD Hunting over H1000 I got a 1/4" group at 5 thou jam w/ 3067 fps
* The gunsmith at Bass Pro shot a 1" with Rem Core-Lokt in their tunnel range
I'm going to hope my chamber is good. The work my 75 year old friend retired gunsmith did on the bolt lugs and cleaning excess ceracoat off the rails and bolt made a world of difference on the action smoothness.
* Berger seating test with 190 VLD Hunting over H1000 I got a 1/4" group at 5 thou jam w/ 3067 fps
* The gunsmith at Bass Pro shot a 1" with Rem Core-Lokt in their tunnel range
I'm going to hope my chamber is good. The work my 75 year old friend retired gunsmith did on the bolt lugs and cleaning excess ceracoat off the rails and bolt made a world of difference on the action smoothness.
Sending156s
Well-Known Member
Thanks for all the input. GA Precision is building a 6.5 PRC for me. I don't think I'll have to "fix" their new build!
