I initially posted regarding the PRS matches simply to add information for those that were interested. The statistics presented in the PRS blog are valid, compiled from direct contact/polling of the TOP 200 PRS NATIONAL competitors. I would encourage those that are interested to actually read the authors statistics and polling information before discounting it out of hand.
Leupold Mark 5
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dfanonymous
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Leupold Mark 5
Hard to measure anything in comps where users get paid or provided free product to use sponsors goods. Sponsors marketing budget has nothing to do with product quality.
Post #23
No question or argument regarding the many other excellent brands of scope available. OP was inquiring specifically about the Leupold Mark 5 scope. Article should be helpful in aiding he and his step-son in making a decision.
Kmccord
Well-Known Member
Well, it seems half are against Leupold and half for, some have issues holding zero and some don't. On those that are not holding zero, when or if you sent it back, was the problem resolved?
I had a 3.6-18 for a bit and ended up selling it simply to try out other stuff. It was fine, and I'd use one again if needed. It better compares to the 4-16 ATACRs that I've had, not the NX8s in my experience.
As it pertains to the zero retention, tracking, return to zero discussion:
If anyone has ever mounted scopes in a solid base and checked tracking and return to zero they would know a few things: 1) vast majority of scopes on the market "track correctly" - that means within 2%, and most are within 1%. 2) Most have reticles that have less than 1 degree of cant. 3) Even scopes that don't come close to tracking correctly return to zero correctly. Return to zero is a term that should be applied to mounts, not scopes. 4) live fire "testing" tells you very little about these items.
Zero retention is the most recent black box. People love talking about it. Those same people tend to shoot huge groups and also could not provide 50- or 100-rounds showing zero retention of the scopes they proselytize. Heck, most could not show you a single 5x5 that show precise/accurate groups, and that wouldn't even take into account any durability type "testing". I'm not saying zero retention isn't a topic to discuss, but I am saying that most of the people discussing it don't have the equipment or skill set to evaluate it.
As it pertains to the zero retention, tracking, return to zero discussion:
If anyone has ever mounted scopes in a solid base and checked tracking and return to zero they would know a few things: 1) vast majority of scopes on the market "track correctly" - that means within 2%, and most are within 1%. 2) Most have reticles that have less than 1 degree of cant. 3) Even scopes that don't come close to tracking correctly return to zero correctly. Return to zero is a term that should be applied to mounts, not scopes. 4) live fire "testing" tells you very little about these items.
Zero retention is the most recent black box. People love talking about it. Those same people tend to shoot huge groups and also could not provide 50- or 100-rounds showing zero retention of the scopes they proselytize. Heck, most could not show you a single 5x5 that show precise/accurate groups, and that wouldn't even take into account any durability type "testing". I'm not saying zero retention isn't a topic to discuss, but I am saying that most of the people discussing it don't have the equipment or skill set to evaluate it.
dfanonymous
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In regards to my comment, since I know things got all over the place, the mark 5 never had a problem. The tracking when I did was something to the tune of .005 error or something. It was nothing.
I never threw the scope around enough to check durability before selling it.
My comment was on the old mark 4s that were in service when I was a young sniper. There was no return to zero testing required. The whole erector assembly was made out of a bad material and caused catastrophic failures of the turret. It's been over 20 years since then, and I couldn't care if they fixed it or not per this discussion.
The other dispute was the commonality of the mark 5 in PRS, as that has some of the better shooters in country in a discipline that more closely represents a hunting shot . It seems, based on talking to others in other regions, that you will see it more or less depending on which circles you hang around and which regions are in question. It is undeniably a favorite across new and successful PRS shooters alike, by the numbers.
That doesn't mean it's perfect. The Vortex razor Gen 3's glass is miles ahead in terms of clarity. Then again, it also cost more. The issue with the Vortex is that the turrets are little spongey. Very NX8 like. Even in tier 1 scopes, there's some compromises.
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Kmccord
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Basically, sounds like this scope is fine, if he has problems, he can send back for warranty work, this doesn't sound like a 20+ percent of the scopes are having problems and if a lot of PRS shooters are using them, then they should track fine.
7.62 Gunner
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I'll chime in on the whole PRS shooters using mk5s, a lot do but here's my theory of why.
Most of the "Pro Shooters" in my region are sponsored by Leupold, they all put the big sticker on their scopes so you know immediately.
PRS is totally a monkey see monkey do sport, a ton of new shooters go out and buy a MK5 cuz that's what the pro shooters use.
Here's another couple of facts; guys show up an hour early to check their zero, and I watch them constantly making adjustments to their scopes.
Also those top shooters (the ones with the Pro Shooter stickers on their mk5s) all have a backup rifle in case their setup takes a dump during a match...
And I've seen them go for that backup
Most of the "Pro Shooters" in my region are sponsored by Leupold, they all put the big sticker on their scopes so you know immediately.
PRS is totally a monkey see monkey do sport, a ton of new shooters go out and buy a MK5 cuz that's what the pro shooters use.
Here's another couple of facts; guys show up an hour early to check their zero, and I watch them constantly making adjustments to their scopes.
Also those top shooters (the ones with the Pro Shooter stickers on their mk5s) all have a backup rifle in case their setup takes a dump during a match...
And I've seen them go for that backup
comfisherman
Well-Known Member
Did the mechanism change when the mass of guys went from razor hd gen 2s to mark 5 hds?
SDPlinker
Well-Known Member
Sounds like quite a few prepared, professional, competitive shooters in your area that you WATCH!
Having drag raced for many years, I have never seen a competitive or winning racer without sponsor decals or spare parts including spare cars or bikes per organization regulations. A+ for the prepared PRS folks in your area!
dfanonymous
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The mechanism?
dfanonymous
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Some of us shoot more than 1 division too…
You use what your sponsors tell you. That's the game. If you don't want sponsorship, don't take it.
The fact that, Pynch, Gadarzi, King, Millard etc stay on the top using a mid grade Leupold scope is more to do with the shooter than the gear.
..and look, it works. With such basic marketing strategy, it sells scopes to the newer guys.
comfisherman
Well-Known Member
Go back half dozen years ago, prs was dominated by razor hd gen 2 4.5-27 scopes. Can't remember the article but it was heavily favored, something like half the guys used them. Did the switch to leupold make then run out and build second rigs and carry around second scopes?
Haven't been around comps in a while, but all that behavior you described was normal for all contestants who uses all manor of gear. Prs guys may somewhat be herd animals, but the ones I know are competitors first. Hard to believe all of them pony up for free scopes that are wildly less competitive than other options.
I get it, those guys are great shooters and could probably do it with any of the top scopes. But why would they all keep at it if they were wildly inferior scopes, that's a behavior pattern not common on any form of competition.
Truth is all scopes are a compromise, even the "zero compromise" ones. The thread has treated it as a binary like all mark 5 scopes are bad, vs the reality that they are a different form of compromise. My nx 8 had a broader range and technical fov over the mark 5, but definitely gave up ease of getting behind at those more extreme ends of the power range. The atacr is more weight, a 4x erector and almost a grand more even shopping around. Can go onward to others as we and the scale of compromises shifts.
Haven't been around comps in a while, but all that behavior you described was normal for all contestants who uses all manor of gear. Prs guys may somewhat be herd animals, but the ones I know are competitors first. Hard to believe all of them pony up for free scopes that are wildly less competitive than other options.
I get it, those guys are great shooters and could probably do it with any of the top scopes. But why would they all keep at it if they were wildly inferior scopes, that's a behavior pattern not common on any form of competition.
Truth is all scopes are a compromise, even the "zero compromise" ones. The thread has treated it as a binary like all mark 5 scopes are bad, vs the reality that they are a different form of compromise. My nx 8 had a broader range and technical fov over the mark 5, but definitely gave up ease of getting behind at those more extreme ends of the power range. The atacr is more weight, a 4x erector and almost a grand more even shopping around. Can go onward to others as we and the scale of compromises shifts.
Encourage everyone to go to PrecisionRifleBlog.com and read the June 10, 2024 report. Informative. "Leupold scopes have surged in popularity since the release of their Mark 5 HD scope in 2021", 39 shooters utilizing (street cost around $2200). Factors such as clarity, ruggedness, reliability are cited by 2 of the top 10 Open Division shooters from 2023. Report also gives specifics about several other top tier scopes that are being used. Tangent Theta 5-25 x 56 model was #2 with 35 of top 200 shooters utilizing (street cost around $4500). BTW, I have no skin in this game, simply passing along information from the report.
