Let's talk Reticles - BDC/TMR

[Hand Skills]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies guys. It's great to hear about the experiences which shape the values we hold. We all have our individual process or approach, and while the subject in question is 'reticles', to me it's a lot deeper than that.

For example, personally, when I am on a serious hunt, I use a fixed power scope. There are pros and cons, but for me it comes down to simplicity. I like being in the moment. I can hold and lead subconsciously, and in those moments I feel the rifle, maybe even the bullet, is an extension of my self, my will. I don't get that feeling as much looking through a variable power (SFP duplex). I feel more like a pilot doing my preflight checklist - looking at the scope ring to verify magnification as I bring the rifle up, calculating reticle subtension at estimated range, recalculating estimated range based on reticle subtension and field of view. Ok, target is moving, verify background, check foreground, oh I've got time, maybe I'll add a bit more zoom...

I feel like I make better shots when I'm not 'in my head', and that's one of the interesting challenges I see in long range shooting - using one's head and then finding the moment.

I'm with you on the math @Baron528, sometimes I wish my mag rings had detents! I like your emphasis of mid-long (400-600yd) - that's exactly what I'm talking about. My goal here is not to build a dedicated long range rig. Though I might someday, simplicity, practicality and portability are my world at present.


I feeling @trebark when he says the reticle is always correct, that really resonates for me.

@WildRose I love that you brought up the Classic mil dot. Under appreciated - a lot of work has been done with that reticle. I understand how a 350yd zero could be /very/ effective in that context, especially when targets are in motion. Could be easily applied to a TMOA or TMR and might allow one to forget about the FOTM 'Christmas tree'.

One thing I've noticed is some 'FFP' scopes are actually DFP - dual focal plane. The thick outer posts are SFP and the crosshairs are FFP. This design really appeals to me. It's interesting to note this feature is not often discussed or even advertised. I think there is great opportunity for advancement in this area.

 

[Hand Skills]

Also, for anyone else considering a Leupold Mark 4, my research has shown they have been sold with 3 different styles of turrets. I'm not sure of interchangeability and will ask them about that. CDS/ZL2 on a Mark 4? That might be just the ticket.

 

[Hand Skills]

LRP reticle chart;

 

[WildRose]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies guys. It's great to hear about the experiences which shape the values we hold. We all have our individual process or approach, and while the subject in question is 'reticles', to me it's a lot deeper than that.

For example, personally, when I am on a serious hunt, I use a fixed power scope. There are pros and cons, but for me it comes down to simplicity. I like being in the moment. I can hold and lead subconsciously, and in those moments I feel the rifle, maybe even the bullet, is an extension of my self, my will. I don't get that feeling as much looking through a variable power (SFP duplex). I feel more like a pilot doing my preflight checklist - looking at the scope ring to verify magnification as I bring the rifle up, calculating reticle subtension at estimated range, recalculating estimated range based on reticle subtension and field of view. Ok, target is moving, verify background, check foreground, oh I've got time, maybe I'll add a bit more zoom...

I feel like I make better shots when I'm not 'in my head', and that's one of the interesting challenges I see in long range shooting - using one's head and then finding the moment.

I'm with you on the math @Baron528, sometimes I wish my mag rings had detents! I like your emphasis of mid-long (400-600yd) - that's exactly what I'm talking about. My goal here is not to build a dedicated long range rig. Though I might someday, simplicity, practicality and portability are my world at present.


I feeling @trebark when he says the reticle is always correct, that really resonates for me.

@WildRose I love that you brought up the Classic mil dot. Under appreciated - a lot of work has been done with that reticle. I understand how a 350yd zero could be /very/ effective in that context, especially when targets are in motion. Could be easily applied to a TMOA or TMR and might allow one to forget about the FOTM 'Christmas tree'.

One thing I've noticed is some 'FFP' scopes are actually DFP - dual focal plane. The thick outer posts are SFP and the crosshairs are FFP. This design really appeals to me. It's interesting to note this feature is not often discussed or even advertised. I think there is great opportunity for advancement in this area.

While we talk about the science of LR shooting a whole lot here in the field much of it is about the art of shooting and that's where familiarity and the ability to simply flow with the moment becomes essential.

Most of my shooting on game, predators, and varmints is done from the truck and as such generally I have only seconds to identify the target, get stopped, get the rifle up and on a moving target, make quick observations and calculations in my head and get a shot off before the critter gets through/over the fence, or disappears into the brush.

Tha requires a completely different skillset and setup than when I'm sitting in a blind or leaning against my favorite tree and setting up for a long shot.

Since I shoot so many different calibers, platforms and individual rigs I keep a drop chart on/with each of my rifles otherwise I'd simply be flinging lead and praying because there's no possible way to keep it all in my head.

Day before yesterday I went out for a quick deer hunt in a very heavily and densely wooded area. I have open places at 240, 430 and about 180yds and usually the game only appears in the openings for a few seconds so I have to be able to adjust rapidly. For all three I know my hold over under and I want a reticle that is very simple but one that gives me a grid so that if a follow up shot is necessary I can simply shift my aimpoint immediately.

Well I get to my blind, an old dead fall tree and before I can even get into it I see a huge sow at 180, a quick scan shows even more in the 240yds hole and the whole place is filled with moving pigs.

I'm about to pull on the old sow and see five more come into view at the 430yds hole.

I know there's no chance in hell of a deer showing up so I'm in full pig slaughter mode.

I'm shooting a model 70 stainless classic pushing 183gr Peregrine VLR5 prototypes at around 3,250fps so it's not only smoking but very flat and even though there's a fair left to right half value wind blowing it's not going to have much if any impact down my lanes because the cover is so thick.

I take sow number one with a "Texas Heart Shot" and shift immediately to the 240yds hole as I put another in the chamber when sow number two comes through at a pretty good clip. I hit her a bit far back but in the spine right at the withers so she's done when the boar appears right behind her.

I line up on him but he turns back into the woods running in the general direction of the 430yds hole.

I set up on the hole just in case and count three MOA in the TMR reticle and sure enough he appears a few seconds later quartering away slightly left to right so I put it a half body length in front of his nose and squeeze.

Bullet enters just behind the last rib on the RH side and exits through the point of the left shoulder transecting the spine and destroying everything in his chest.

The whole thing takes less than two minutes.

This morning I'm set up at dawn where I dressed the hogs on the edge of a wheatfield with plenty of time to set up knowing the range is right at 600yds. Sure enough just as the sun starts to crack the horizon three coyote show up.

I'm already dialed in and two make the mistake of lining up and I let one fly. I lose both of them for a moment in a big "poof" and shift to the third who like most coyotes is trying to run looking back over his shoulder and bounces to a stop about 150yds from his friends. I measure in the reticle from his feet to his withers and elevate putting that point just behind the right front leg and let it fly.

He's done too.

I really like the TMOA reticle because of the versatility which really works right into my different applications.

I also have the B&C, in the VX6 and two VX3's and Mil dog's on my Mark 4's and a couple of Zeiss conquests and they work well for me as well.

My favorite though is the MP8 on my IOR tacticals I have on three other rigs.

I'm sure if I'd grown up shooting FFP reticles I'd have no problem with them but I'm about 45 years into shooting with SFP and I can't see myself changing. I've also got middle aged eyes and have to admit some difficulty in picking them up when they get itty bitty.

That's about the best I can explain it and the most recent examples of how I use them.

I'd say go with what you are most used to and works best for your eyes and the way that you shoot and remember K.I.S.S.

Complicating things just doesn't work for me.

 

[Hand Skills]

While we talk about the science of LR shooting a whole lot here in the field much of it is about the art of shooting and that's where familiarity and the ability to simply flow with the moment becomes essential.

Most of my shooting on game, predators, and varmints is done from the truck and as such generally I have only seconds to identify the target, get stopped, get the rifle up and on a moving target, make quick observations and calculations in my head and get a shot off before the critter gets through/over the fence, or disappears into the brush.

Tha requires a completely different skillset and setup than when I'm sitting in a blind or leaning against my favorite tree and setting up for a long shot.

Since I shoot so many different calibers, platforms and individual rigs I keep a drop chart on/with each of my rifles otherwise I'd simply be flinging lead and praying because there's no possible way to keep it all in my head.

Day before yesterday I went out for a quick deer hunt in a very heavily and densely wooded area. I have open places at 240, 430 and about 180yds and usually the game only appears in the openings for a few seconds so I have to be able to adjust rapidly. For all three I know my hold over under and I want a reticle that is very simple but one that gives me a grid so that if a follow up shot is necessary I can simply shift my aimpoint immediately.

Well I get to my blind, an old dead fall tree and before I can even get into it I see a huge sow at 180, a quick scan shows even more in the 240yds hole and the whole place is filled with moving pigs.

I'm about to pull on the old sow and see five more come into view at the 430yds hole.

I know there's no chance in hell of a deer showing up so I'm in full pig slaughter mode.

I'm shooting a model 70 stainless classic pushing 183gr Peregrine VLR5 prototypes at around 3,250fps so it's not only smoking but very flat and even though there's a fair left to right half value wind blowing it's not going to have much if any impact down my lanes because the cover is so thick.

I take sow number one with a "Texas Heart Shot" and shift immediately to the 240yds hole as I put another in the chamber when sow number two comes through at a pretty good clip. I hit her a bit far back but in the spine right at the withers so she's done when the boar appears right behind her.

I line up on him but he turns back into the woods running in the general direction of the 430yds hole.

I set up on the hole just in case and count three MOA in the TMR reticle and sure enough he appears a few seconds later quartering away slightly left to right so I put it a half body length in front of his nose and squeeze.

Bullet enters just behind the last rib on the RH side and exits through the point of the left shoulder transecting the spine and destroying everything in his chest.

The whole thing takes less than two minutes.

This morning I'm set up at dawn where I dressed the hogs on the edge of a wheatfield with plenty of time to set up knowing the range is right at 600yds. Sure enough just as the sun starts to crack the horizon three coyote show up.

I'm already dialed in and two make the mistake of lining up and I let one fly. I lose both of them for a moment in a big "poof" and shift to the third who like most coyotes is trying to run looking back over his shoulder and bounces to a stop about 150yds from his friends. I measure in the reticle from his feet to his withers and elevate putting that point just behind the right front leg and let it fly.

He's done too.

I really like the TMOA reticle because of the versatility which really works right into my different applications.

I also have the B&C, in the VX6 and two VX3's and Mil dog's on my Mark 4's and a couple of Zeiss conquests and they work well for me as well.

My favorite though is the MP8 on my IOR tacticals I have on three other rigs.

I'm sure if I'd grown up shooting FFP reticles I'd have no problem with them but I'm about 45 years into shooting with SFP and I can't see myself changing. I've also got middle aged eyes and have to admit some difficulty in picking them up when they get itty bitty.

That's about the best I can explain it and the most recent examples of how I use them.

I'd say go with what you are most used to and works best for your eyes and the way that you shoot and remember K.I.S.S.

Complicating things just doesn't work for me.

Great post sir, and thank you for mentioning the MP8. The reticle really is where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. In my experience, the intersection of my crosshairs seldom indicate my desired point of impact in a hunting application.

That's not just impressive shooting, getting 3 hogs out of the field is a feat in itself! Congratulations on the great action.

Attached is the MP8 reticle w/ and w/o subtensions.

I'm familiar with IOR, I was not aware of that design however.

A couple of things I really like about it;

-MOA subtensions- I had been leaning toward MIL/MIL for simplicity of dialling (usually 10 clicks per mil, compared with typically 4 clicks per MOA) but MOA reticles seem to come out ahead for me - 1 MOA hash marks appear to my eye as the best balance. MIL reticles seem to be a bit coarse at 1/2mil increments, and a bit cluttered at .2mil.

-Open centre in the crosshairs - the mp8 features an illuminated dot of 0.1MOA, which seems to me to offer a great precision aim point for paper punching/load development.

 

[Hand Skills]

Attached are the two reticles that I have favoured out of all my research - addition of the MP8 to that group rounds out a nice top 3 from which I'll make a decision, unless anyone else can point out one I may have missed.

 

[Hand Skills]

Here is a link I wish I found earlier - lots of images consolidated in one place;

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/07/31/tactical-scopes-reticles/

Wish I had found it earlier, but it was buried deep. Thought it sensible to post here for posterity.

 

[WildRose]

Here is a link I wish I found earlier - lots of images consolidated in one place;

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/07/31/tactical-scopes-reticles/

Wish I had found it earlier, but it was buried deep. Thought it sensible to post here for posterity.

Give the Leupold TMOA and Impact reticles a look.

I find that a lot of the reticles just get to be "too busy", too much stuff for me to sort out.

Simple is good.

The MP-8 is about as busy as I want to deal with in the field.

If I have time to dial a simple German or Duplex reticle is plenty.

If I'm having to make a quick shot using the reticle to calculate the shot on the fly I don't want any more information in the lens than is necessary to do so.

As for the pig kill'n, I torture Mario with pictures and play by play on pretty much all of them just because he can't be here with me HA!

We've got so many mostly it's strictly a control operation but I sure do like eating them. Having to kill so many though I have a rule, if I'm alone and it's dark or close to dark I'm not picking anything up that doesn't drop stone dead.

If I get hurt going after a wounded hog my wife will probably take a broom to my head.

 

[WildRose]

Here is a link I wish I found earlier - lots of images consolidated in one place;

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/07/31/tactical-scopes-reticles/

Wish I had found it earlier, but it was buried deep. Thought it sensible to post here for posterity.

That's a great find.

 

[AGL4now]

Why do they "NEED" to have the vertical line above the center of reticles etched on glass. For example I am deeply smitten with Leuplod's series of "Impact" reticles, especially the "Impact 23" reticle. I just fail to see any application for the straight vertical line above the horizontal hash marks.........I request any insight.

 

[Barrelnut]

Most likely just tradition. I think it also helps draw the eye down to the center of the reticle. I level my reticles with a plum-bob and use the vertical line to align with the plum-bob.

 

[Canhunter35]

Tradition.
You can also zero ur rifle for a close range using a hash mark above the center line. Some reticles have tight hash marks in the extremity for milling targets

 

[AGL4now]

Yes.........I agree that a few hash marks above center is useful, But above that I would much prefer open space.

You can also zero ur rifle for a close range using a hash mark above the center line.

 

[WildRose]

Why do they "NEED" to have the vertical line above the center of reticles etched on glass. For example I am deeply smitten with Leuplod's series of "Impact" reticles, especially the "Impact 23" reticle. I just fail to see any application for the straight vertical line above the horizontal hash marks.........I request any insight.

For one thing you can use one of those marks above as your initial zero point to enable you to use those below it for quick drop compensation on the fly. They can also be used for ranges below whatever range your zero is set at.

They can also be used when gauging size or to help you gage how far over the target your impact was in the event of a miss high.