Let's argue about BC's

I had an interesting play with modifying meplat size a while back.
With the new jacket Hornady BTHP match bullets in 250gn .338 caliber.

They made changes to the jacket that made the bullet work better on targets but a poor performer on game. So wanting to keep the excellent ballistic performance of this bullet and improve its game getting performance. I had a go a modifying the meplat.

The idea was to hone out the inside of the meplat with a sharp pointed diamond hone to a depth of 8mm. I found that at this depth the inside hole of the hollow point was about 0.020" wider but the outside diameter was untouched.

So with my way of thinking I would end up with a larger hole and thinner jacket at the pointy end. All good things to promote expansion on Game. I also figured that as the outside of the meplat was unchanged, the modification would have little effect on the B.C. of the bullet.

Man,I was onto something I thought! Should make the ballistic hall of fame with this bit of genius thinking.

Problem was when shot side by side against unmodified bullets out of the same rifle. They shot about 14" low at 1000 yards. So much for making it into the hall of fame. Oh well back to the drawing board

So obviously the inside diameter of the meplat has an effect on B.C. as well as the outside diameter of the meplat. Funny thing that only the outside diameter is ever mentioned when people talk about such things.

The plot thickens.........I had also opened to hollow point on those 190 SMK's from .020 to .040. I did not include that info in the above post because a very reputable/respected member here claimed that the size of the hollow point did NOT matter. He said pack it with lead or pack it with air, it does not matter. It made a bit of sense. Now I may find out I may have been given some bad advice. Maybe maybe not. One thing is for sure, we both 'observed' the same thing by opening a hollow point. It is definately a pattern. One other thing is for sure. I have learned more during this thread than I have in a long time. I am greatful to have been a part of it.

M
 
Michael,
I'm not surprised that you observed the same thing. I was disapointed when my plan can unstuck.

Still think it might work if I hone out the meplat first then use a bullet pointing tool to close up the nose back to its original size.

Would then end up with a large cavity in the nose and a thinner jacket at the nose. B.C. should also be back close to original if not a bit better?

Bit of mucking about though to get a bullet to work properly on game. I wouldn't bother if I had a better selection of bullets available.
 
Nope, youll get more disagreement from me on that note... the inside diameter of the meplat should have no bearing on supersonic aerodynamics The flow is choked off and behaves as a blunt flat tip. The resulting bow shock is detached from the nose of the projectile at this point, and it may reattach futher down the nose of the bullet if the meplat is very small, or simply remain detached if the meplat is large.
Your observations Topshot, must have been caused by something else - i wont speculate on what this might be, but for example did you measure the mass of the bullet after you modifications? Less mass = less BC all else equal...

Another interesting point on meplats, is if the meplat is 15% or less of the caliber diameter, it does not increase drag at all compared to a perfectly pointed tip. In fact, there is evidence to suggest 15% meplat diameter is ideal because it actually has slightly LESS drag than a perfectly pointed tip of the same nose length and caliber... Unfortunately, meplats are usually greater than 15%...
 
I also cannot fathom how a meplat with the same outside diameter, but a larger opening would have more drag ??? unless the BC reduction is related to weight removal like groper suggested. I'm not saying the observations of increased drop are not accurate, but I would be very interested in learning more about what's going on there.

One thought might be that if the mass is not removed perfectly concentric from the hollow point, the resulting dynamic mass imbalance would cause the bullet to fly with a small amount of yaw, which would cause induced drag on the bullet (elevating it's drag above what it would be for a bullet flying with zero yaw).

Another interesting point on meplats, is if the meplat is 15% or less of the caliber diameter, it does not increase drag at all compared to a perfectly pointed tip. In fact, there is evidence to suggest 15% meplat diameter is ideal because it actually has slightly LESS drag than a perfectly pointed tip of the same nose length and caliber... Unfortunately, meplats are usually greater than 15%...

The highlighted part of the above statement is key. Many people learn of the 15% meplat being 'optimal', and improperly assume that if they grind off the front of a needle sharp bullet to a meplat of 15%, it will be an improvement. This is not the case because in doing so, the nose length is shortened, so you're no longer comparing noses of the same length. Comparing a meplat of 0% to one of 15% for noses of the same length actually means two entirely different ogive shapes (one that comes to a point, and one that doesn't).

-Bryan
 
Indeed, thanks for highlighting that Bryan...

Topshot,

Did you check the zero with the modified bullets compared to the unmodified bullets? or did you simply shoot them side by side with the unmodified bullets @ 1000yds without checking the zero? Remember youve changed the mass and balance of the projectile, so the internal ballistics could have changed also... You wouldnt think it makes much difference, but i assure you it can be quite dramatic... remember, 14inches @ 1000yds would only look like 1inch zero error @ 100yds...

This is a prime example of how the slightest oversight, can effect a persons observations and trick them into believing theyve measured a vastly different BC when using the measured drops methodology - as we discussed earlier in the thread... one must be especially mindful of this when your mucking around with different loads, seating depths and bullets etc...

That was the whole point of everything ive been trying to say this entire thread, its not about whos right and wrong, its about accurate methodologies vs methods which are easily susceptible to error. Topshot, if you were using 2 chronies or the accoustic method, you most likely would not have noticed any significant change in BC for those bullets you modified, and perhaps your bright idea is not dead just yet...
 
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Statistical Considerations Regarding BC Variations

I appreciate the discussion, and I apologize that I cannot address every question asked in the desired level of detail. In some cases, time constraints prevent a longer discussion. In other cases, I am limited by consideration of my co-authors and the approval process of my employer regarding internal review and approval for public release of data. Rest assured, our unpublished data is in various stages of manuscript preparation, peer review, and approval processes.

We should recall that if the shot-to-shot random measurement errors are +/- X% for a given bullet, that the uncertainty in the mean will be +/-X%/sqrt(n - 1) for a sample size of n. In other words, if the shot-to-shot measurement errors are +/- 5% for a sample size of 5 shots, then the uncertainty in the mean BC will be +/- 2.5%. One wound need to average BCs from a sample size of 26 shots to reduce the uncertainty in the mean to 1%.

It was aptly pointed out that few shooters choose lead tipped bullets for long range hunting, so that it makes more sense to confine the discussion to match, hollow point, and plastic tipped bullets. Recall that near Mach 1.75, the drag coefficient of the Berger .264 caliber 140 grain VLD (Litz p. 402) varies from roughly 0.27 to 0.31 which is about 13%, or +/- 6.5%. Dividing by sqrt(n - 1) for a sample size of 10 suggests an uncertainty in the mean of +/- 2.2%. Consider also that near Mach 2.4, the .257 caliber 115 grain VLD (Litz p. 390) shows a shot-to-shot variation of close to 10%, or +/- 5%. The uncertainty in the mean for a sample size of four shots is then close to +/- 2.9%. Likewise, near Mach 2.3, the Barnes 115 grain TTSX (Litz p. 397) shows about a 10% variation in drag coefficient, which for a sample size of four shots also yields an uncertainty in BC close to +/- 2.9%. (There is some ambiguity between the label, the drawing, and p. 316 whether this is the tipped TTSX or the hollow point TSX.)

Much like the Litz data, our data also tends to show greater shot-to-shot variations in lead tipped bullets than hollow point match designs and plastic-tipped designs. However, just as in the Litz data, the shot-to-shot variations in drag prevent us from determining the average BC to 1% or better in many hollow point and plastic tipped designs. In our earlier published paper (http://arxiv.org/pdf/0705.0389), the uncertainties in the mean BC vary from 0.5% for the 40 grain .224 VMAX to 11% for the 110 grain .308 VMAX.

In the earlier paper, we report the measured the G1 BC of the 115 grain .257 caliber VLD to be 0.419 with a 1% uncertainty in the mean. The published reply by Bryan Litz suggested that an old lot of bullets yielded dimensional variations that were responsible for the 13% difference between our measurements and measurements on a more recent lot as published by Litz. Presumably there is a range of lot-to-lot variations from different production lines, and perhaps we accidentally stumbled upon an unusually large lot-to-lot variation, and the vast majority of lots from most companies are within 5% of each other.

However, since there is very little published data on lot-to-lot variations, we should recognize that optimistic estimates of lot-to-lot variations are little more than an educated guess. Such hypotheses should be subject to validation by empirical testing rather than being relied upon too heavily. Comparing the Sierra and Litz data certainly suggests that either rifle-to-rifle or lot-to-lot variations over 5% and even over 10% are not rare events. As one ballistics expert quotes at his web site "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is." (Yogi Berra)

Aye!

Michael
 
This is a prime example of how the slightest oversight, can effect a persons observations and trick them into believing theyve measured a vastly different BC when using the measured drops methodology - as we discussed earlier in the thread... one must be especially mindful of this when your mucking around with different loads, seating depths and bullets etc...

That was the whole point of everything ive been trying to say this entire thread, its not about whos right and wrong, its about accurate methodologies vs methods which are easily susceptible to error. Topshot, if you were using 2 chronies or the accoustic method, you most likely would not have noticed any significant change in BC for those bullets you modified, and perhaps your bright idea is not dead just yet...


Here we go again. It's just another 'oversight' on our part. Since they were so low, maybe you could call it an undersight.

Groper, Instead of saying it is an oversight, GET OUT THERE AND TRY IT!!!! Then and only then can you rightfully say that. Untill then it is mere speculation on your part. You say it is an overisight on our part. The thought that it is nothing more than an oversight is an assumption on YOUR part and not a fact.

I really dont care why they dropped low. BC reduction, more yaw yada yad yada. The fact remains, they did drop well below normal and side by side with untouched bullets from the same lot. That is a fact. I suggest you get out there and find some facts of your own. Then come back and say it was nothing more than an oversight. I dont think you can do any better. If you think you can, prove it to us. In other words, put up or shut up.

Quoted by Bryan:

I'm not saying the observations of increased drop are not accurate, but I would be very interested in learning more about what's going on there.

We appreciate your interest in the desire to learn about this.



M
 
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Michael,

Good luck. I can understand Groper's thoughts on this, not saying I agree but understand. It is kinda like telling someone you saw big foot or a UFO. (never seen either BTW) Or telling someone that you have seen a rifle that shoots 1 MOA at 100 yards, but 1/2 MOA at 1000 yards. I used to see BCs as black and white as anyone. I never saw a real deviation that could not be explained easily for several years, and only one instance ever that I could not figure out, what the error is. If it were not for that one strange instance I would probably be in rank and file with some other posters. Since that time i have learned that BCs only work to a degree. I lost my faith. It all depends what you want out of them. If you want to hit within 3 foot of a target at a mile they are great. If you want to hit that target some one has got to shoot the gun extensively. Whether the changes to be made are changing BCs or some enviromental variable such as velocity it all becomes a matter of voodoo at some point.

I have learned one thing that is absolutely certain. No matter what number I put in my calculator, it will not effect the actual trajectory of a projectile and that even with great errors in BC ballistic calculators can be fooled into matching your actual trajectories. I learned some time before this thread that sometimes what is not "right" is what works best. I have also learned that sometimes it is best to leave well enough alone.

I am through arguing BCs, (although I never had anything to add other than stirring the pot) my concern remains the same that some will put so much faith in BCs that they will neglect shooting their rifles at ranges they will take shots at animals. I think that animals deserve more than a theoretical chance at a quick kill. I appolagize once again for any discontent that I have interjected into this thread. Please continue, I will enjoy reading the posts.
 
Indeed, thanks for highlighting that Bryan...

Topshot,

Did you check the zero with the modified bullets compared to the unmodified bullets?
No

This is a prime example of how the slightest oversight, can effect a persons observations and trick them into believing theyve measured a vastly different BC when using the measured drops methodology..
OK, You could be right!

perhaps your bright idea is not dead just yet...
OK, Back to the drawing board. I still might make a Ballistic genius.

Groper,
I have taken your thoughts on board and will redo the test. This time I will check how they shoot at 100 yards and at 1000 yards in direct comparison with unmodified bullets. I will take accurate measurements and photo's of the meplats and post them on a new thread once the test has been completed.

If you are right, and the result is that they do shoot lower at 100 yards as well as 1000 yards, then it will be simply be a change in zero effect and not a reduction in B.C. I will then have to test them on game. This could be a win/win situation.

As Bryan says........
One thought might be that if the mass is not removed perfectly concentric from the hollow point, the resulting dynamic mass imbalance would cause the bullet to fly with a small amount of yaw, which would cause induced drag on the bullet (elevating it's drag above what it would be for a bullet flying with zero yaw).

This sounds like it could be a logical explaination, but I would have thought that a reduction in accuracy would have occured at 1000 yards as well, and that was not the case.

Time will tell. I can not do it this week as I have to go away hunting Fallow deer for a week, but when I get back some lead will fly. In the mean time you or Bryan, are welcome to try this simple test yourself.
 
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I wonder if the very thin knife edge of the jacket left at the point simply cant stand up to the heat/pressure of flight and become a bit more blunt. I seems to me these edges would have air flowing across them, where a single sharp point would not. Just a wild guess.
 
Lets argue is too much to resist! let me unqualify myself. My lonest deer shot is a little over 800yds. I target shoot more than twice that. I have no way to scientifically measure a b.c. in the wind other than averages in drop and deflection. I dont know how far it takes for a particular bullet to go to sleep but have seen that the same bullet in different rifles may be as much as 50yds. difference. When I started seating just ahead of the major diameter of the ogive I noticed that the oal changed by as much as .003 and more. barrel diameters vary and every rifle will swage its bullet different ( change its overall shape a little) Rifle engraving also changes the bullet because it will not start at the same diameter on all bullets. G7 or G anything is not a perfect match to anything other than the standard. When I add this up I wonder how any 2 rifles could possibly shoot a bullet with the same b.c. because it doesn't matter what goes in the chamber compared to what comes out the muzzle. At yardages as boring as 1000yds. I dont think the differences amount to didly squat on a pie plate size kill zone but makes a large difference at 1500yds. between rifles. for me at about 1200 yds. I start using a lot of fudge factor. I myself am not competent enough to harvest animals at 1500yds. but feel very comfortable shooting targets. I know there are lots of people who put enough time money and effort to do so, perhaps well beyond 1500yds.
 
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