Let's argue about BC's

I think that to assume that all rifles shoot the same bullets in the same flight orientation is a pretty big leap.

I would say that a particular bullet has a particular bc as long as it flies perfectly. If one is going to say that the Litz found bc is the one and only bc that can be used and that if it does not fit the drop then it is pilot error some where in the inputs. That way of thinking would have to say that a .8 bc bullet fired backwards is still a .8 bc bullet. So, would the shooter have to adjust the bc number in order to get the flight path correct in the ballistic program? Or start checking to make sure that the scope height is measured correctly and that the click values are what we he thinks they are?

So to conclude my sophomoric example. I think that a person has to use the bc of the bullet as a fluid number, and try to get all the other numbers as close as possible. It is science, but with too many variables.

Steve
 
As a last contribution to this thread, think about this...

Let us assume that one has all the variable inputs correct in their ballistic calculator, such as scope calibration, environmentals, zero, yada yada... lets assume that all that stuff is perfect. So we are only going to focus on velocity, and BC as unknowns - we are not sure about the BC of this bullet, so we try to come up with our best number that works for our real world trajectory...

So; if we shoot our rifle thru the chrony, and it tells us an average velocity for our load. We then derive our BC from our best reckoning, by shooting this rifle at varying distance and comparing the drops, and we tweak the BC so that our trajectory looks good. Were good to go. Sound familiar? This will allow us to hit pretty much everything we shoot at, out to some pretty long ranges, regardless of how accurate the velocity was, or how close we got with our derived BC... Also Sound familiar? So what we have works for us here, and works quite well...

In spite of all this, please tell me that you realize your trajectory WILL NOT work well when you travel to a far away land or state, and hunt at dramatically different altitudes and temperatures - IF the velocity and BC your using in your calculator are not truly accurate! Regardless of who`s right and wrong, or who has the best methods with the least amount of error influencing the other measurements - so long as you realize this, is all that matters... For the animals sake and our own success...
 
I'll reserve judgement until I learn a little more about this. But the basic physical laws of the universe that we live in tell me that BC is determined by the shape and mass of the bullet.... period. Bringing in outside factors such as coning, I would call external factors that might need to be compensated for. These "external" factors may affect the drop, TOF and windage of the bullet.

Perfect!

I agree with you in the sense that I believe that a BC is made up of mass and design. Math has proven this over and over. I preach the bold statments below regularly.

Technically, BC = (drag deceleration of the standard bullet) / (drag deceleration of the actual bullet). The reference of the standard bullet used is 1.000.

The below statements are not all there is to BCs. rather, the info below is BC in its most simple state used for comparison purposes to show the relation between sectional density and BC.

BC is (for the most part) a simple function of Sectional Density and Form Factor.

SD = Bullet weight (in pounds) / (bullet diameter * bullet diameter)

BC = SD / FF

Change the SD and not the FF (or vice versa) and you change the BC plain and simple.


This is what I call the 'Static' ballistic coeffiecient.

The dynamic ballistic coefficient is the static BC plus or minus 'other' variables such as 'coning', stability factors etc......So yes, a BC may be charecterized as a set rule overall but there are exceptions that play into the 'real world dynamic' BC when you add or subtract the 'external' factors.

This is why even though I believe that the rules above apply to BC's, that I also preach your BC's need to be derrived from actual tests because there are no promises that a given rifle will spit out a given bullet in a way that equates to a pure SD/FF value. Some will, some wont. If ALL else were equal, BC would truely be nothing more than SD/FF. In the universe I live in, not all in gun barrels and how this translates into bullet reaction are equal. If Bryan tested a given bullet in a given rifle and came up with a given value be it 99% accurate or 100% accurate, it would take an identical set of varibales for anyone to match those values with absolute precision. Otherwise, it is a great place to start. Nothing more, nothing less. One man's test with his variables is only a 'baseline'. That said, I agree that Bryan's tests are a GREAT baseline, but not an absolute. I have proven to myself that some of his values and my 'calculated' values, despite not being credible are often within .001-.005. Some of our values are 10+% apart. Does that mean that I imparted 10+% of error during my tests? Possibly, but what if it had more to do with my rifle/load relationship? After all, we are talking 'precision' shooting here. A great baseline is not a one size fits all. It is a GREAT place to start. Bryan's tests are a baseline for all of us and an absolute for him. Anybody else's tests (assuming they did it right) are nothing more than a baseline for anybody else where they are an absolute for who did the tests.

To say that another man's BC test, even if 100% accurate for him is an absolute for everybody else is like saying one man worked up a 1/4 MOA load in his rifle and that absolutely will shoot 1/4 MOA in every other rifle of the same cartridge. You may compare this to apples and oranges and it is for technical sake, but the principal remains. There are variables that you and I cannot see that equates to my rifle likes this load and your rifle hates the same load and vice versa despite them both being solid sub 1/2 MOA performers. Two barrels, same manufacture, same caliber, same twist, same length, same smith, same chamber, etc.......One likes this powder the other likes that one.....Both barrels look the same. Both smell the same. Both have the same specs and tollerences. WHY THE HE!! wont they shoot the same load at the same speed with the same accuracy??? Please tell me. Molecular structure? Who knows. The point is that both barrels share all known variables in common yet they perform differently. That being the case, could not BC's share similar differences from unseen and unknown variables. Nobody ever argues about the fact that similar gun barrels still need their own load development for optimum accuracy. Yet we beat a dead horse flatter than a pancake arguing that similar gun barrels at their respective velocity dont need to be tested for an optimum BC. What the he!! is the difference? When it comes to hand loads, two barrels of equal specs (in theory) should perform equally in every aspect but they dont. Nobody argues that. But we argue that the same two barrels should produce the same BC's when they dont produce equal velocities or accuracy from a given load. Amazing!

If a given rifle offers 'external' varibles to the bare minimum degree, the 'static' BC will match very closely those calculated. If a given rifle has influences on a bullet that add or subtract to a larger degree then it will not match a calculated figure. Those 'variables' have to be concidered. Often they are 'absorbed' into the BC so as to change it from a 'static BC' to a 'dynamic BC'.

Call it a dynamic BC or what have you but the sum of the parts working together that make a bullet = 1.73567 seconds time of arrival at 1000 yards = the BC that we as shooters are concerned with. Not the 'static' BC which is calulated by SD/FF or by one indavidual's tests. When ALL the variables come into play I could care less about SD/FF = static BC. I care about SD/FF +/- all the variables that = dynamic BC.

If you and I and Bryan all had the exact same test equipment and methods etc.....where the margins of error were identical where we used different rifles and velocities where we all came up with different 'dyanamic' BC's, who would be right or wrong? If I knew the exact velocity and TOF at 896 yards of my bullets in my rifle why would I care what you or Bryan came up with.

BTW, all 3 would possibly and probably be different. If you and I and Bryan shot side by side by side on his test range with our own weapons using the same projectiles, you are going to see differences between us period. Does this defy physics? No. Physics are physics. The problem never lays with physics. The problem lays with humans and their inferior understanding of physics and the fact that we think we understand physics when we often times dont fully have the full picture when we think we do.

Yes I believe that BC's from one point of view is a set in stone factor. I also believe that when you add other variables into the mix, even if we dont know the variables, the BC, or at least the sum of the parts working together that concerns us can be affected.

You can call it what you want. Magic, mojo, voodoo, defiance of logic, just plain bull $h!t or the sum of the parts working together (which may include sectional density, form factor, velocity, stabilty factor, yaw, pitch, coning, so on and so forth...) within the boundaries of natural physics that cause a bullet to arrive at a given range at a given velocity with a given time of flight, which I assure you has more to do with just raw preflight sectional density and preflight form factor.

M
 
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Good post and I agree with almost everything you have stated below. Heck my opinions do not differ too terribly much in actually any respect. A real question from one long range hunter to another, all chain jerking aside. When you travel to hunt, do you shoot your rifle before you hunt? ( I do not expect and answer, as you have not answered one yet :)) I can assure you that I do.

I have admitted numerous times that the starting BC that I use is not the "correct" BC for the bullet that I am using. However I have not stated what my stepped secondary G1 BC or the third G1 BC or even the fourth stepped BC that I am using is actually. You never asked, and as you refused to answer any of my questions I am not telling, now, except to say that one stepped BC matches very closely to BLs G1 BC and steps very near the velocity where he determined the BC. The others are also probably more in line with what you might expect or maybe lower, and are closer to matching my trajectory than using the actual G1 BC.

Good Luck with the bullet, I have enjoyed reading some of your posts herein. Yes, I was stirring the pot with some of my earlier posts, You were too busy spouting the information about how it is impossible, and telling me what I am doing wrong to listen anyway. I will tell you that my drops correspond very well with my trajectory at least where I have traveled. As usual I do not know why using the really high G1 BC works better as my first BC, other than the velocity dependence of the G1 form factor and possibly some scope errors as Jon A pointed out. I am sure you can figure it out better than I can. Maybe Kirby builds rifles with super stabilizing barrels. It always seemed to me that is would compound errors later in flight but it does not.

I still hold firm that you have to shoot your rifle and make BCs work to the degree of accuracy needed for LRH. If you read my only post from a day or so ago in the lets not argue about BCs thread I alluded to the substance of this post a little.

BTW I finally got around to watching that video of you shooting at rocks....only two words....you missed:) Good luck.

As a last contribution to this thread, think about this...

Let us assume that one has all the variable inputs correct in their ballistic calculator, such as scope calibration, environmentals, zero, yada yada... lets assume that all that stuff is perfect. So we are only going to focus on velocity, and BC as unknowns - we are not sure about the BC of this bullet, so we try to come up with our best number that works for our real world trajectory...

So; if we shoot our rifle thru the chrony, and it tells us an average velocity for our load. We then derive our BC from our best reckoning, by shooting this rifle at varying distance and comparing the drops, and we tweak the BC so that our trajectory looks good. Were good to go. Sound familiar? This will allow us to hit pretty much everything we shoot at, out to some pretty long ranges, regardless of how accurate the velocity was, or how close we got with our derived BC... Also Sound familiar? So what we have works for us here, and works quite well...

In spite of all this, please tell me that you realize your trajectory WILL NOT work well when you travel to a far away land or state, and hunt at dramatically different altitudes and temperatures - IF the velocity and BC your using in your calculator are not truly accurate! Regardless of who`s right and wrong, or who has the best methods with the least amount of error influencing the other measurements - so long as you realize this, is all that matters... For the animals sake and our own success...
 
I think that to assume that all rifles shoot the same bullets in the same flight orientation is a pretty big leap.

I agree...but does that have anything to do with the BC of the bullet? If you shoot a 180 E-tip out of your 30-338 LM and compare the "flight orientation" to the 180 E-tip out of my 300 WSM, does that change the drag coefficient of the bullet?

Let's take it a step farther... suppose you shot that bullet out of your 30-338 in a 28" 10 twist Lilja and I shot it out of a30-338 LM 26" 11 twist 5C Broughton. Would it change the BC (drag coefficient) of the bullet? No... the bulet's BC is the same... according to the defintion of shape and mass.

I would say that a particular bullet has a particular bc as long as it flies perfectly.

Yes... and if it doesn't fly perfecly, does that change it's BC? I say no. the BC must be accurately represented and the flight imperfection applied.

If one is going to say that the Litz found bc is the one and only bc that can be used and that if it does not fit the drop then it is pilot error some where in the inputs. That way of thinking would have to say that a .8 bc bullet fired backwards is still a .8 bc bullet.

Nahh, you're throwing oranges into the apple bushel. When you flip flop the nose and tail you have CHANGED the SHAPE of the bullet... right? Right.

On Litz being the "one and only" BC source, vs "pilot error"... I have already said that I don't think BL is infallable.... and having said, that who would you say has more knowledge and experience in the subject.... at least in these forums? Supose I made a post here claiming that the 180 E-Tip had a BC of .612 and BL said it was .543 ... Which BC would you use as a starting point?




So, would the shooter have to adjust the bc number in order to get the flight path correct in the ballistic program? Or start checking to make sure that the scope height is measured correctly and that the click values are what we he thinks they are?

I think the obvious is to make sure all the inputs are as accurate as possible.... garbage in, garbage out. It becomes subjective at some point.... which inputs do you trust most? Then you can run multiple options and see which one fits best.


So to conclude my sophomoric example. I think that a person has to use the bc of the bullet as a fluid number, and try to get all the other numbers as close as possible. It is science, but with too many variables.

Steve

To be honest with you that's what I've done in my limited experience . Too many variables? I don't think so. Long shots are accurately predictable. That's been proven.
 
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Yes, I was stirring the pot with some of my earlier posts, You were too busy spouting the information about how it is impossible, and telling me what I am doing wrong to listen anyway.

Hilarious!!! next time ill be sure to listen when your stirring the pot so the garbage sinks in shall I?

Almost as funny as this - the highlight of the thread - in case anyone missed it... Hysterical and painfully accurate...

Bryan Litz said:
Eddybo,

I've read all your posts in this thread, and they all say the same thing. To paraphrase:

"There is a lot that I don't know, or care to know about how ballistics programs work and what their sensitivities are to error. I admit to not using the program 'properly'. My primary calculator only works with G1 BC's and I don't really understand or care to understand how G7 BC's are different. By misusing my software, I've noticed that a false BC can be used to match up with things I observed while shooting. Based on that, I conclude that BC's are meaningless, useless, and anyone who expects accurate results with them is naive."

I think ive found a new sig... :D
 
If a given rifle has influences on a bullet that add or subtract to a larger degree then it will not match a calculated figure.
The thing is, I've never heard any credible explanation of exactly how a particular barrel can add to a bullet's BC beyond its potential (I don't really think "static" is a good word for it) by any significant amount.

Everybody acknowledges if there is something less than optimum with a barrel/bullet combination that can lower the observed BC. It's claims that a particular barrel can somehow make a bullet fly significantly better than its physical shape and mass should allow that raise eyebrows.
 
Everybody acknowledges if there is something less than optimum with a barrel/bullet combination that can lower the observed BC.

Not a true summary of what people have said. Some are still adamantly denying that a barrel has an effect.



Call it a dynamic BC or what have you but the sum of the parts working together that make a bullet = 1.73567 seconds time of arrival at 1000 yards = the BC that we as shooters are concerned with. Not the 'static' BC which is calculated by SD/FF or by one individual's tests. When ALL the variables come into play I could care less about SD/FF = static BC. I care about SD/FF +/- all the variables that = dynamic BC.

That is pretty much how I worked up the BCs for the 130 grain and 142 grain 257 caliber Wildcat bullets. Measure the shape, compare to other similar shapes, work with similar SDs and then go out and test the bullet shooting drops to long range. Finally tweak everything to match the data and as time passes keep an eye on how good my "applied BCs" are doing killing animals.

In spite of all this, please tell me that you realize your trajectory WILL NOT work well when you travel to a far away land or state, and hunt at dramatically different altitudes and temperatures - IF the velocity and BC your using in your calculator are not truly accurate! Regardless of who`s right and wrong, or who has the best methods with the least amount of error influencing the other measurements - so long as you realize this, is all that matters... For the animals sake and our own success...


The difference between shooting milk jugs and hunting elk and antelope for people like me and Eddybo is we live and develop our loads and data at sea level and then travel at least a 1000 miles to hunt at elevations up to 9,000 feet and temperature changes that may be as much 80 degrees F. Within moderately long range of 1K or so what we do works for us and transfers well enough that we are successful.
 
I wouldn't say that a BC 20% higher than expected is impossible, but rather that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to back them up. A small minority of bullets have G7 BCs that exceed their sectional density, and most of these only exceed the sectional density 5% or less. Therefore, any claim of a G7 BC that is more than the sectional density (or a G1 BC more than twice the sectional density) is an extraordinary claim, and I would tend to be doubtful unless and until the claim is verified by an independent reliable source that is capable of measuring BCs with either dual chronographs or a time of flight method.

It is an astute observation that most of the ways that an imperfect barrel or misformed bullet change the BC is to lower it by increased drag. There are a small number of cases where we've measured BCs 10% or so higher than the bullet manufacturer's claims (Litz also), but we've never had a case where a majority of rifles we tested had consistent BCs and one rifle gave a much higher BC than the rest. The odd rifle out seems to always give a lower BC.

The different hypotheses I mentioned above regarding why rifles can differ in BC are all viable and difficult to rule out in any specific case. In the absence of carefully designed and executed experiments that minimize confounding effects, we'd only be guessing. It may well be a crown defect inducing a large yaw early in flight, but any crown defect has gone unnoticed by myself and a skilled local gunsmith. The most compelling verification of that hypothesis would be to have the rifle recrowned and then retest the BC and have it fall into line with the other rifles. However, I'm about at the end of my patience with that barrel and I think I'll have a 6.5-284 Lilja barrel put on that rifle to serve as a 600 yard critter smacker and 1000 yard paper puncher if it shoots really well. My daughters (12 and 14) both want to shoot my 25-06 Sendero, and it would be nice to have a similar rig with the higher BCs of the 140 grain bullets.

I think it is a mistake to allocate too much of one's shot placement error budget to uncertainties in BC. Sure, lowering the BC by 13% might not produce enough additional drop to cause a miss, but a lot of other factors contribute to inaccuracies. I prefer that controllable factors like BC not be adding to my shot placement errors. Several of the articles on bullet pointing and meplat trimming to bring BC consistency into the 1% range make a lot of sense to me. Of course, so do aluminum and plastic tipped bullets for better BC consistency. A lower than expected BC not only produces more drop than expected, it produces more wind drift, which produces sub-optimal shot placement. It also produces lower impact velocity than expected which runs the risk of falling below the bullet's window for reliable expansion. Finally, a lower than expected BC can make the sub-sonic transition much closer than expected.

I don't know of any program that determines BCs from downrange impacts, as the only methods generally considered valid are the dual chronograph method measuring velocity loss over a fixed distance and the method of using a near chronograph and time of flight. Using point of impact, one can only proceed by guessing different BCs and then assuming you are close when the downrange point of impact matches. Of course, this approach assumes that BC is the only variable factor in downrange point of impact and that all the possible confounding factors are perfectly known and controlled, because the point of impact method is much more susceptible to a much broader variety of errors. Small variations in muzzle velocity, inherent accuracy, up drafts, down drafts, air density, scope issues, and even the Coriolis effect negatively impact this approach.

On the whole, BCs are a useful tool for predicting wind drift, retained energy, and bullet drop once a BC is determined for a given rifle. A BC from a bullet manufacturer or measured by another shooter in a different rifle might only be useful for getting on the paper at long range or for determining a short list of the most promising bullet candidates to try in a new rifle project. Experience and some analysis of the published Litz data also gives some clues as to which bullet designs are more commonly associated with exaggerated BC claims from their manufacturers.

Michael
 
Technically, BC = (drag deceleration of the standard bullet) / (drag deceleration of the actual bullet). The reference of the standard bullet used is 1.000.

The above is incorrect.
The form factor of the standard bullet is 1.000, the BC of the standard bullet is its sectional density.

James
 
In the world of hunting at long range one can consider the antelope I shot last year and explore the limits of the term "significant".

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f85/7-allem-mag-smokes-some-fur-62836/index3.html

The antelope is hit at the bottom of the spine severing the thoracic aorta at 1080 yards -/+; however, I can increase the G7 BC used in the calculations by 13% and not significantly affect the outcome. I will still hit the bottom of the heart and get a one shot bang flop kill. So one could if one wished to use the word significant say that a 13% change in BC is not significant. However, if we move back about another thousand yards and shoot at the same antelope now at 2K yards we will find that we can not even tolerate a 1% change in BC before it becomes significant and we do not kill the animal. Interestingly enough this is inside the margin of error of measuring BCs. And that less than one percent error has to include other errors such as human, mirage, wind and ranging.

For starters, that was another great shot BB! I really enjoy your videos. What camera are you using? Gives a pretty good view of 1K plus. Hopefully I can do some vids like that.

OK, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here? Are you saying your rifle is changing the bullet's shape? Are you saying the G7 model is whacked out? I'm very interest in your claim that changing the G7 BC by 13% only changed the bullets POI very slightly. Is that observed or calculated? I would like to run the numbers if you could provide the inputs.

Have you ever recovered any of your bullets and measured their shanks and compared with unfired bullets? If they are the same, then your bullet hasn't changed shape... unless the nose is slumping... and then we have a whole other can of worms. That would definitely increase the bullets drag factor and almost assuredly cause stability and accuracy problems. If the bullet's nose is deforming, then it's being pushed beyond it's operational limits. A bullet is going to come out the muzzle of a rifle with the same diameter as the bore... period. The only shape change that can take place is at the nose and that would be a BAD thing... and I am guessing that bullet makers such as Bryan and Paul would be the first to agree. the bullet's nose was designed to give the best performance for that bullet.

Are you saying that a change of the bullet's shape resulting from being fired from a rifle actually enhances the bullet's ballistics?


Not a true summary of what people have said. Some are still adamantly denying that a barrel has an effect.
[

Let me state my position clearly... I adamantly deny that a properly rifled rifle bore will change the shape of a bullet that is not being pushed beyond it's limitations. Therefore, since according to the physical laws of the universe, which can not be altered, the ballistic drag coefficient can not be changed from being fired from a rifle bore, since the bullet's drag coefficient is completely dependent upon it's shape and mass alone. any other "apparent" effects on the bullet such as coning, etc., are external factors and have nothing to do with the bullet's drag coefficient.

If this is wrong, I would like to see proof. Over in the "other" thread, they have a whole list of things that might explain discrepancies between published and individually field tested BC's.

In the mean time you have a system that works for and as I've already stated to Eddybo and whoever, that's great. Making the shot is what it's all about.

As for me, I'll start with the best info available, which IMO is BL's G7's. If my actual results differ, and I can't figure out why, then I'll adjust accordingly.
 
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The thing is, I've never heard any credible explanation of exactly how a particular barrel can add to a bullet's BC beyond its potential (I don't really think "static" is a good word for it) by any significant amount.

Everybody acknowledges if there is something less than optimum with a barrel/bullet combination that can lower the observed BC. It's claims that a particular barrel can somehow make a bullet fly significantly better than its physical shape and mass should allow that raise eyebrows.

Bingo
 
Rifle/barrel effects on BC.

Yes, it's possible. The important thing to keep in mind is 'how much' effect is possible/likely. The barrels I test from are all heavy barrels with match chambers/crowns with twist rates adequate to stabilize the bullets being tested. I use these kinds of barrels because they are most likely to launch the bullets with minimal initial yaw and adequate stability. In other words, I'm giving the bullet the best conditions to fly with the highest BC it can fly with.

You can read in chapter 10 of my book (pg152) a case where I measured the same bullet to have a BC ~13% lower in one barrel compared to the test barrel. This was a deliberate test done to illustrate the consequence of inadequate stability on measured BC. The .243 caliber 95 grain VLD flies with a G7 BC of .249 when fired from a 1:8" twist 6mm BR heavy barrel, which produces an estimated stability factor of 1.67 (comfortable). The same bullet flies with a G7 BC of .218 when fired from a 1:10" twist lightweight hunting rifle barrel that only produces a stability factor of 1.07 (quite low). So this is one case where inadequate stability can produce a lower BC.

That's quite irrelevant for the most part though, because we tend to shoot bullets with twists equal to or greater than the recommended twist, which always impart adequate stability.
Is it possible (you might ask) to increase the BC of a bullet even further by spinning it even faster? NO! Once a bullet is flying with comfortable, adequate stability (SG = 1.4+), the BC of that bullet will not improve any more by spinning it faster. In other words, when the bullet is adequately stabilized, it's making it's way thru the air in the most efficient orientation (point forward, zero yaw). Spinning it faster can't make it fly with less than zero yaw, or lower than the minimal drag.
Point of this is that the BC can be 'less' from a given barrel if that barrel doesn't impart adequate stability. But the BC for a properly stabilized bullet cannot be improved further by any mechanism related to stability.

Another question that's been touched on: "Can a bullet have a lower BC over long range by being over-stabilized (locking it into a nose high orientation)? Answer: not by a measurable amount. First of all, a bullet with an excessive amount of stability will fly with an increasing nose right (for right twist barrels) orientation called yaw of repose. This is the mechanism that results in spin drift. The nose right orientation is only a very small fraction of a degree, not enough to change the retained velocity of the bullet by even a single fps over 1000 yards. It's barely enough to steer the bullet (drift) by less than 1 MOA in 1000 yards, so it's effect on drag is negligible.

To summarize stability effects, we can say that: once a bullet is adequately stable, you cannot reduce or increase it's drag by spinning it faster. You can only hurt the BC of the bullet by not having adequate stability.

For further reading on this subject including Sierra's tests, refer to the bottom half of this article: exterior ballistics

So how else could a barrel affect BC? If a given barrel imparts more initial yaw for a bullet, that could lower the BC, right? Sure it could, especially in the first 50-100 yards that it takes for the bullet to dampen out the yaw (go to sleep). Again, don't put too much emphasis on this, especially for long range shooting. First of all, most of the rifles we use for LR shooting are well made with heavier than average barrels, good crowns, and tend to launch bullets with minimal yaw so their effective BC's will be about as good as possible because there's not much yaw to dampen. A soda straw thin barrel firing a heavy bullet might induce significant initial yaw for that bullet. It might even increase the drag, and reduced the measured BC by 10% for that bullet in the first 100 yards of flight. However, after 100 yards, the yaw of that bullet will be down to near zero, and it will fly the rest of it's trajectory with a BC closer to the max value. This is a big reason why I advocate against testing BC's at close range (In addition to the greater sensitivity of the test to uncertainties of every variable compared to longer range tests). Even if you execute the test perfectly at 100 or even 200 yards, it may produce a lower BC for that bullet than what the average, effective value is over long range because of the yaw effects that only exist up close. In other words, using a BC that's measured in the first 100 yards isn't representative of the bullets true average over long range if the bullet was launched with significant yaw. All of this is covered in the article I posted, which I'll repost here:
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/AccurateSpecificationsofBallisticCoefficients_3.pdf

To sum up effects of initial launch dynamics: It is possible for a barrel to produce a lower measured BC in the first ~100 yards if that rifle launches the bullet with a high level of initial yaw/yaw rate. However, that BC will not be a true average of the bullets performance over long range after the initial yaw has damped out.

What about the effects of rough/smooth bores? A rough or smooth bore will affect a bullet by the engravings it leaves behind on the bullet's surface. A very rough barrel can even 'drag' some jacket material back past the bearing surface/BT juncture which may get peeled forward on exiting the muzzle, producing little 'fins' which add to the drag. This situation can be improved by laping the barrel, and/or coating the bullets with moly or something else. Keep in mind, this is a way for bullets to possibly fly with more drag, not less. However, it is a way for the BC of a bullet to be affected by what rifle it's fired in.

To summarize the above discussion, it is possible for a rifle/barrel to have problems which result in launching a bullet with less than it's potential BC. The biggest effect would be firing a bullet with inadequate stability. But that's not a situation anyone would care about because accuracy would be bad and you wouldn't care about the BC.
The short range BC can be lower if significant initial yaw exists. This is also not likely to be relevant for most LR shooters who use high quality heavy barrels. Furthermore, the long range average BC of the bullet will tend toward it's potential max after the bullet goes to sleep.
One real effect that a barrel can have on a bullet for it's entire trajectory is the roughness/smoothness of the engravings that are left on a bullet. This is mostly a surface roughness effect, which affects the least significant component of bullet drag: skin friction drag.

The barrels I test in give the bullets their best chance at flying with the highest BC, and that BC is measured over long range (600 yards minimum). If bullets are actually flying with a much lower BC (5% or more) from your rifle (especially over short range), I would say it's entirely possible and there's probably something about your rifle that can be improved. If you think that your rifle is shooting bullets with a much higher BC (5% or more) than what I've measured, I consider that an extraordinary claim, and as MC so aptly put:
...extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to back them up.

Another statement that's worth repeating from MC's post, which summarizes much of what I'm talking about is:
It is an astute observation that most of the ways that an imperfect barrel or misformed bullet change the BC is to lower it by increased drag. There are a small number of cases where we've measured BCs 10% or so higher than the bullet manufacturer's claims (Litz also), but we've never had a case where a majority of rifles we tested had consistent BCs and one rifle gave a much higher BC than the rest. The odd rifle out seems to always give a lower BC.

And I would be interested in the details of those small number of cases. I'll bet we tested bullets from very different lots, or there is some other 'good reason' for the +10% out-lier that doesn't actually imply a bullet flying with less drag than what's possible.

To reiterate a statement that I made earlier in the thread; I'm not here to stomp my foot and declare my BC's are perfect. My numbers and I are not infallible. If you have to adjust my BC by a couple % to get it to match your data, that's fine. I would be surprised if a drop test repeatably suggested the same couple % error. My point is that my testing and results are self consistent, and at this point I've got a lot of historical data to refer to, much of it includes firing the same bullet from different rifles and observing insignificant differences.

My agenda is the following. I'm trying to acknowledge that there are reasons why BC's can be affected by different rifles, without having everyone lose total faith in the science of ballistics. It's one thing if a number is 'off' by 1% or 2%. In most cases that won't result in a miss. However, just by talking about that, it opens a dangerous door. People come away with the conclusion that 'BCs depend on what rifle you shoot' without understanding the magnitude. It becomes a reason to accept that it's possible for them to be 20% different, and give up on trying to understand how everything really works.

So, in closing, I'll reiterate: if you have a quality barrel (good interior finish), with a good crown, with adequate twist for the bullets you're shooting, and it's bedded properly it will launch bullets with a BC very close to the max potential BC of the bullet, which is what I attempt to represent with my numbers. If you have a rifle like this, my BC's should work for you with very minimal alteration (less than 2%) for the supersonic range of the bullet. My collective experience over the years since I started measuring BC's supports the above statement. The biggest caveat I can think of is lot dependence of bullets. All the bullet makers have lot variation (even variation within a lot), but it tends to be minor. The worse lot variation I've seen is about 5%, and the specific dimensional differences of the lots explains the 5%. This is a big reason why I include dimensioned drawings of the bullets I tested, and their lot number. If your bullet dimensions very a lot from what I tested, it's a legitimate reason why you would find a different BC for that bullet.

-Bryan
 
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The above is incorrect.
The form factor of the standard bullet is 1.000, the BC of the standard bullet is its sectional density.

James

May be you just missunderstand me. The BC of the standard bullet is defined to be 1.000.

BC = Drag deceleration of the standard bullet / drag deceleration of the actual bullet. Yes, sectional density is a huge part. Coupled with form factor, these two combined factors make up the 'drag deceleration' of the bullet. In other words, the drag deceleration relies on SD and FF. Obviously other factors such as velocity, yaw etc....play into this as well.

If you apply that formula to the standard bullet it works out to a BC of 1.000.

Drag deceleration of the standard bullet / Drag deceleration of the standard bullet = 1.000

If that is what you dissagree with, take it up with Sierra Bullets.


M
 
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