Let's argue about BC's

Even though we've validated an acoustic technique with simultaneous use of near and far chronographs, the two chronograph method is more accurate and highly recommended where possible, because small errors in various measurements (near velocity, distance, temperature, air pressure, etc.) have smaller impact on BC determinations with two chronographs.

In our two chronograph method, we verify that the two chronographs give the expected velocity drop (1-4 fps) when placed a few feet apart before we extend the distance to 300 or 600 feet.

We have seen significant variances in BCs between different rifles, and even within the same rifle before and after polishing the bore. Lots of factors effect bullet drag. In the absence of a BC measurement in a specific rifle, Bryan Litz's numbers are usually the best available estimate, but I strongly prefer to measure the BC in my rifle using two chronographs spaced by 300-600 feet. A single chronograph and our acoustic technique for your specific rifle would also be preferable to just going with any published number. In contrast, you're probably better off going with a published number than with a BC estimate determined from drop.

Michael Courtney

Oh my!!! You have just started a war. Or have at least thrown yourself into a hail of bullets. I have to admire your courage doing this as your first post.

Finally. Some validation. Thank you. You have just said exactally what I have been wanting and trying to say. I obviously am not as 'gifted' about expressing my thoughts as you are.

Thank you. BTW, even though you joined some time ago, welcome.

PS, to those of concern, (Jon A, Groper and Bryan) I just dropped off my rifle and 300 barrel to my local smith. He estimated about the middle of next week. After I get her back, I will get to the range and re-vist where I went wrong or went right or. Hopefully, the results will lay somewhere in the middle. I promise you all, if I have been wrong I will eat the crow. I just want to get the system right.
 
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LOL. I am outta this one, cause I expect it to get lively now. My parting word is you gotta shoot the gun, and many errors can be overcome. BCs still mean nothing to me other than a number that gives me the closest trajectory at any given range. I do think G7 is the best for factor for VLD and ULD bullets, but do not think they are infallable.

BTW thanks for all of the posts Bryan Jon A, Groper Bob Paul and Michael and others. I have learned a lot from this thread and from all of you. Thanking yall in advance for the continued flow if information.

Bryan I do not know if you have that info that you provided on the 200gr wildcat. I would be interested in haveing the same info, only if readily available on the 265gr 338 HAT bullets.....like those I sent you. Do not go through any trouble, only if handy. I have not even tried a g7 BC with that bullet but would be interested to try it.
As you discerned I do think that there are errors in my system, although I do not think they are optics related or related to sight height. I am not sure where they are exactly but I have been striving to eliminate them over a year. If I could find those errors, maybe my thoughts on the subject will change. I just have a hard time getting past how one G7 BC for one bullet works perfectly in a rifle, while another G7 BC for another manufacturers bullets does not work well in the same rifle. I have a thought on this, but will not bore you with it, but would just say stacked errors with one being 1% one way, the other 1%, one of which just happens to match my trajectories. I still dunno.
 
Eddie
Hope you are feeling better and get to do some hunting this fall. Now that you have cleared 1K on elk, I'm going to be expecting something better than that. :D
 
I've gotta step away too. Enough work got pushed off as a result of this thread. Getting into Pejsas 'genius' is a long conversation, and the subtleties of tof or velocity derived BC's is addressed in my second edition which is being held up with every minute I spend here!

Take care all. Looking forward to picking the conversation back up when Michael gets his 300 RUM barrel back.

-Bryan
 
Just give up not matter what you do they will try and pick apart your methods and claim you must have done something wrong,
It's called peer review. Please understand, this is what we do. It's in our nature. There's no reason to be personally offended by it. It's how we separate repeatable science from unsubstantiated claims, wild guesses and plain ol' ********. Somebody's got to do it or nothing new ever gets learned.


I think it is important for shooters to understand that they cannot zero a rifle at 100 yards and be ready to shoot at 1k. Your honest admission that you probably cannot do this and have doubts that the readers here can do it either makes my only point.

Of course. I don't think I've seen anybody in this or any thread here advocating shooting animals at long range without first actually shooting those distances. What I've been advocating is that when somebody finds, through actual shooting, that their actual drop doesn't match the predicted drop, they put forth some effort to find out what the real cause was.

If they find that and fix it such that the predictions match reality using as many real and accurate numbers as possible they'll be way better off in the end than if their first reaction to missing a target is to immediately assume it is due to the BC.

Keep things in perspective as well. It's one thing to tweak a BC a bit to make things match up at 1500 yds after double and triple checking everything else meticulously.

It is quite another for somebody who hasn't done all that but misses a target at ½ that distance to immediately assume it's because the BC of that bullet is 20% or more different "from his rifle." That guy (nobody in particular here but pretty widespread throughout the hunting/shooting world) is almost always wrong and it will catch up with him when he tries to use that new BC at longer ranges and/or different conditions or velocities.

Unfortunately, I feel the attitude of "BC's are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get….Just pick a number, any number, just keep sticking numbers in there until you hit the target—then you're done and you know for sure that's the correct BC 'for your rifle'" displayed by so many is not only incorrect, but it encourages people to be like the second guy which in the end does him more harm than good.

As for cheer-leading G7's, you're reading things into it that aren't there. For most of the bullets we use, yes, they are much better. But nobody said they are perfect or that they are for all bullets. For example, with the 240 SMK I used stepped G1's because that bullet just doesn't fit the G7 curve well at all.
 
First of all, BCs should be measured with either the velocity loss or the time of flight technique. Using bullet drop is prone to many errors because bullet drop is sensitive to many uncertainties and confounding factors that do not exist at all or have much smaller effect on velocity loss and time of flight techniques.

Secondly, anyone who cares about BC accuracy and effects on retained velocity, wind drift, and drop should read Bryan Litz's book.

We've published four papers on BC issues and acoustic measurement techniques:

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0601/0601102.pdf

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0812/0812.4752.pdf

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0705/0705.0391.pdf

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0705/0705.0389.pdf

Even though we've validated an acoustic technique with simultaneous use of near and far chronographs, the two chronograph method is more accurate and highly recommended where possible, because small errors in various measurements (near velocity, distance, temperature, air pressure, etc.) have smaller impact on BC determinations with two chronographs.

In our two chronograph method, we verify that the two chronographs give the expected velocity drop (1-4 fps) when placed a few feet apart before we extend the distance to 300 or 600 feet.

We have seen significant variances in BCs between different rifles, and even within the same rifle before and after polishing the bore. Lots of factors effect bullet drag. In the absence of a BC measurement in a specific rifle, Bryan Litz's numbers are usually the best available estimate, but I strongly prefer to measure the BC in my rifle using two chronographs spaced by 300-600 feet. A single chronograph and our acoustic technique for your specific rifle would also be preferable to just going with any published number. In contrast, you're probably better off going with a published number than with a BC estimate determined from drop.

Michael Courtney

Thanks for your contribution Michael, ive read your papers and like the ideas presented - however i can see some problems within your methods, and if done differently, would improve the accuracy/resolution of the accoustic method of determining BC - same goes for the 2 chronograph method.

First some of the problems i have with both methods;
1. The testing is not done at far enough distances to provide a good enough AVERAGE of the BC in a long range flight regime - if your only measuring across a distance of 300 or 600 feet, then you can only calculate an average BC in the high velocity part of the flight regime. As we know, the BC decays with decreasing velocity, so we really want to know the average BC over much longer ranges such as 1000yds. So- why not build a steel shield for the second chrony @ 1000yds so we dont smash it, and shoot for averages there in order to get better resolution from much greater velocity decay and better "average BC"? - many dont bother, because its a PITA to setup the second chronograph way out there with sheilds and making sure its actually working before you waste all you ammo etc etc...

Now the same thinking applies to the accoustic method, longer ranges, longer Time of Flight, better resolution, and a more complete flight regime in which to average the BC over. The problem with the method presented in your paper, is with being able to record the sounds accurately - which i guess is why you dont do it at further ranges... So i offer this simple improvement to your method, originally suggested to me by Bryan Litz...

Take the computer and microphone into the pits (where you score and mark the targets protected behind a mound at the dangerous end of the rifle range) of a sanctioned 1000yd rifle range - so you know the distances are accurate. You will also need a 2 way radio at both ends, and have the shooter key the transmitter before he pulls the trigger and shoots thru a chronograph (or 2 chronographs front to back even better) At the recieving end, you get the muzzle blast come thru the 2 way, then some time later the sonic crack of the bullet as it passes overhead. Allowing approx 0.001 sec for each foot the microphone is from the bullet hole in the target, and the transmitter is from the shooters muzzle at the other end, you get a very good Time of Flight measurement over 1000yds -which is usually more than a 1 second ToF depending on the caliber. Reverse calculate the BC using a G7 calculation if your using a VLD type bullet, to match your measured time of flight @ 1000yds and your chronographed velocities. Repeat this 10 times if you wish, in as quick or slow succession as you like, then take a mean or median average, upto you.

Again tho, this is only as good as the operators attention to detail - but it does eliminate much of the errors associated with aiming errors, zero errors, drop errors, scope tracking errors etc - they are completely gone.

The second issue i have is with trusting chronographs. You may have verified the chronies are accurate to each other when placed front to back, but they may be in different light when you shift one out to 300ft - 600ft, and making sure they are perpendicular to the bullet flight etc all contain error... Additionally whilst they may be reading the same, is it an accurate reading or simply that they reading the same inaccurate velocity in those light conditions? Either way, the more distance you have, the better resolution you get and these velocity errors become less influential on the outcome of the calculated average BC...
 
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Groper,

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but here are a few more thoughts...
The testing is not done at far enough distances to provide a good enough AVERAGE of the BC in a long range flight regime
Do you really want the average for the entire flight regime? Doesn't the bullet actually follow a couple of different curves throughout several different flight regimes?

What you're proposing sounds useful, but it would be nice if you could actually capture the same data at numerous points along the flight path.

There are some systems (Oehler Research, Inc.--Model 43 Personal Ballistic Laboratory) that use microphones to pinpoint shot placement on targets. If you could place those frames along the flight path and synchronize the clocks, then you might be able to record several datapoints along the same flight path for each shot fired.

if your only measuring across a distance of 300 or 600 feet, then you can only calculate an average BC in the high velocity part of the flight regime
Would reducing muzzle velocity adequately simulate different flight regimes?

Thanks,
Richard
 
Do you really want the average for the entire flight regime? Doesn't the bullet actually follow a couple of different curves throughout several different flight regimes?

What you're proposing sounds useful, but it would be nice if you could actually capture the same data at numerous points along the flight path.

There are some systems (Oehler Research, Inc.--Model 43 Personal Ballistic Laboratory) that use microphones to pinpoint shot placement on targets. If you could place those frames along the flight path and synchronize the clocks, then you might be able to record several datapoints along the same flight path for each shot fired.


Would reducing muzzle velocity adequately simulate different flight regimes?

Thanks,
Richard

We are most interested in predicting the trajectory at long range - because we dont even need much help to dope short range trajectories and small errors in BC wont cause a significant problem for us here. So its the definitely the slower speed flight regime in which we are most interested in "cumulatively averaging" in order to derive a BC thats useful to us at long range where its most important to us. This explains why muzzle velocity G1 BC quoted by bullet manufacturers are so useless in a ballistics calculator- its not because they are vastly inaccurate, its just that they are inappropriate for what we are using them for.

Indeed, using a reduced muzzle velocity to do the testing would solve that part of the problem. But think about what that involves... i think its more difficult and more hassle to develop a load sufficiently slow, then another one medium, and then another at full velocity and conduct 3 exhaustive tests, rather than just do a single test at long range - which implicitly "cumulatively averages" the flight regime by default.

You mention using multiple microphones along the 1000yd trajectory in the same manner - well this is exactly what bryan litz does in his testing! Again, its too difficult for most to setup accurately, and it requires a high level of operator skill and experience to derive an accurate result from so much data and knowing the ins/outs of such a complex system - The distance from each microphone to the bullet path must be known and accounted for - just to name 1 difficult aspect of it - But when done correctly, its very accurate to within 1% because you get a much more complete picture AND great resolution with it.
 
We have seen significant variances in BCs between different rifles, and even within the same rifle before and after polishing the bore. Lots of factors effect bullet drag. In the absence of a BC measurement in a specific rifle, Bryan Litz's numbers are usually the best available estimate, but I strongly prefer to measure the BC in my rifle using two chronographs spaced by 300-600 feet. A single chronograph and our acoustic technique for your specific rifle would also be preferable to just going with any published number. In contrast, you're probably better off going with a published number than with a BC estimate determined from drop.

Michael Courtney

When you say you have seen significant BC variances, can you provide us with more detail? What was the accuracy of your overall BC tests and what was a significant variation? 1%? 15%? I think everyone agrees that there is always some BC variation (1%), the disagreement is over how large the G7 BC variation can be by the same bullet fired in different rifles, different velocities, etc.

As a side note, it is commendable to see people like Bryan (Berger Bullets) and Wildcat Bullets join the thread and share their knowledge and views while facing the firing line of a public forum. How many other bullet manufacturers are willing to do that? I am glad to see you so openly supporting our passion for long range. I will definitely be buying more bullets from you guys!

Eric
 
As a side note, it is commendable to see people like Bryan (Berger Bullets) and Wildcat Bullets join the thread and share their knowledge and views while facing the firing line of a public forum.
+1 Very transparent and much appreciated
I will be ordering books and bullets from these guys.
Thanks!
 
LOL I can honestly say that you have said noting to offend me in any way, sorry if that statment offended you. I think, if you would look back to my last post, I even thanked you for your input, do you thank people who **** you off? Off the top of my head about the only thing I can recall you stating in this entire thread is that scope values are important.

This is not a treatise, this is a longrange hunting site. While some are here to discuss the scientific minutia of ballistic coefficients, most are here to learn applicable skills......for hunting. My posting in this thread has consisted primarily of questions and my repeating that the rifle must be shot. Sorry if you did not draw the correlation between shooting the rifle and for hunting purposes, but this is a longrange hunting site.

I have already stated my thoughts on the importance of basically warning shooters that just because you plug in an accurate velocity and a given BC that things may not go as planned. Dealing with many beginner long range shooters every year I may be a little more sensitive to errors that newbies make.

By the way tell me while we are at it tell me what bullets you are shooting using G1 or G7 BCs and to what ranges.






It's called peer review. Please understand, this is what we do. It's in our nature. There's no reason to be personally offended by it. It's how we separate repeatable science from unsubstantiated claims, wild guesses and plain ol' ********. Somebody's got to do it or nothing new ever gets learned.




Of course. I don't think I've seen anybody in this or any thread here advocating shooting animals at long range without first actually shooting those distances. What I've been advocating is that when somebody finds, through actual shooting, that their actual drop doesn't match the predicted drop, they put forth some effort to find out what the real cause was.

If they find that and fix it such that the predictions match reality using as many real and accurate numbers as possible they'll be way better off in the end than if their first reaction to missing a target is to immediately assume it is due to the BC.

Keep things in perspective as well. It's one thing to tweak a BC a bit to make things match up at 1500 yds after double and triple checking everything else meticulously.

It is quite another for somebody who hasn't done all that but misses a target at ½ that distance to immediately assume it's because the BC of that bullet is 20% or more different "from his rifle." That guy (nobody in particular here but pretty widespread throughout the hunting/shooting world) is almost always wrong and it will catch up with him when he tries to use that new BC at longer ranges and/or different conditions or velocities.

Unfortunately, I feel the attitude of "BC's are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get….Just pick a number, any number, just keep sticking numbers in there until you hit the target—then you're done and you know for sure that's the correct BC 'for your rifle'" displayed by so many is not only incorrect, but it encourages people to be like the second guy which in the end does him more harm than good.

As for cheer-leading G7's, you're reading things into it that aren't there. For most of the bullets we use, yes, they are much better. But nobody said they are perfect or that they are for all bullets. For example, with the 240 SMK I used stepped G1's because that bullet just doesn't fit the G7 curve well at all.
 
After finally catching up and reading all the posts, I don't have any answers, only more questions.

What effect does the particular twist of a specific barrel inducing a stability factor on a bullet, which induces a particular amount of yaw on the bullet, do to the bc? Knowing that a 10 twist button rifle is not exactly 10 twist. If a bullet experiences varying degrees of yaw based on the specific twist and velocity it must create a differing amount of drag. If a bullet is not hitting the atmosphere directly point on then the side of the bullet induces a different amount of drag. So the way I see it a bullet that has been shot with a higher stability factor will have more drag than that of the same bullet shot with a lower stability factor because of the bullet nose orientation upward.

Could this be the source for different bc's being noticed out of different rifles shooting the same bullet at different velocities?

I don't know if that made sense, but I tried.

Steve
 
After finally catching up and reading all the posts, I don't have any answers, only more questions.

What effect does the particular twist of a specific barrel inducing a stability factor on a bullet, which induces a particular amount of yaw on the bullet, do to the bc? Knowing that a 10 twist button rifle is not exactly 10 twist. If a bullet experiences varying degrees of yaw based on the specific twist and velocity it must create a differing amount of drag. If a bullet is not hitting the atmosphere directly point on then the side of the bullet induces a different amount of drag. So the way I see it a bullet that has been shot with a higher stability factor will have more drag than that of the same bullet shot with a lower stability factor because of the bullet nose orientation upward.

Could this be the source for different bc's being noticed out of different rifles shooting the same bullet at different velocities?

I don't know if that made sense, but I tried.

Steve
Great question. And, I'm not poking fun. But, the number of variables are mind boggling...
If a bad barrel can degrade the BC, can a good one improve it?
How about standard vs 5R vs ratchet rifling?
And, normal vs progressive twist?
Tubbs final finish?
Can we add all of the tricks together to get a 1.0 G7 BC?
I suppose the list of research opportunities goes on forever.

As a shooter, it's probably just easier to keep trying barrels until you find one that's a "hummer" and then hang onto it.

--richard
 
Great question. And, I'm not poking fun. But, the number of variables are mind boggling...
If a bad barrel can degrade the BC, can a good one improve it?
How about standard vs 5R vs ratchet rifling?
And, normal vs progressive twist?
Tubbs final finish?
Can we add all of the tricks together to get a 1.0 G7 BC?
I suppose the list of research opportunities goes on forever.

As a shooter, it's probably just easier to keep trying barrels until you find one that's a "hummer" and then hang onto it.

--richard

I don't think it is bad barrels, but I do think that the rpm's of a bullet play a pivotal role in how a bullet orients in flight, which in turn has a direct effect on the bc of the bullet. Thus causing bc changes for the same bullet aside from bc's changing throughout velocity range.

Then again I could be all wet.

Steve
 
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