Learing to shoot light rifles.

[greenejc]

One more question: do you have more than one .308?

 

[LoneTraveler]

When checking the stock barrel clearance, Lay the rifle horizonal. Some of the stocks will bow just from the weight of barrel down pressure. And barrel and stock will make contact. You may want to try heavy and light weight bullets. Some guns barrel twist just prefer light or heavy barrels.

 

[Crockett12]

Assuming your rifle has a good barrel and is bedded properly, it may "like" a certain bullet and not others. Also -- normally the accuracy of a rifle depends on consistent vibrations of the rifle upon firing!
I had 2 ea. 270WSM's in lightweight rifles, both under 7.5 lbs and one being closer to 7 lbs -- the heavier one scoped with a Vortex 4x16 HST and the other with a Leupold 3x9 VariX II. I've found both rifles "liked" lighter bullets and heavy bullets rather than mid weight bullets in 270 caliber. That means they both shot well (3/4 inch or less) with 110 Barnes TSX bullets and 150 gr Sierra SPBT. I've tried many 130 gr and 140 gr bullets in both rifles and they've never as accurate as the 110's and 150's.
Often a rifle "likes" certain bullets and not others. So try as many different brands and weight bullets as you can.
Another thing is how you hold your rifle when shooting off a benchrest! I found both rifles are significantly more accurate when I hold the rifle more "tightly" than allowing free recoil.
Another thing you should consider is this. Your rifle may be affected by what you use for a rest! Your rest should generally be firm and should firmly hold the rifle without "bouncing" upon recoil. Are you using a plastic front rest? If so, invest in a heavier front rest such as the Bald Eagle Standard Front Rest and sand filled bags, both front & rear. Consistency is the answer to accuracy with a lightweight rifle that has any kind of recoil!
Another thing to consider! Your rifle may show you a very different level of accuracy when hunting and shooting off shooting sticks or a tripod rather than from the benchrest!

 

[jjmp]

I'd suggest have Kevin skim bed your action and free float you barrel about 1/8 of and inch ,another issue is your trigger, it's Important that it's the Best you can afford. Another thing is ask if Kevin can lapp your barrel,reason is it will take hundreds of shots for you to get there , this will fast track everything you want your rifle to do for you . With Respect your action should be lubed a little grease goes a long ways ,dry actions wear prematurely with out it ,Or at least grease your inside rails,bolt lugs etc,I apply mine with an old toothbrush, another thing have Kevin Check your bbls Crown ,save you brass and start looking into reloading Or have a friend give you lessons Or do it for you . Glad your on the mend ,best wishes and Cheers.

 

[Jauberger]

Yes, factory rail. My only other option for mounts is through Talley. The Superlite action is not the same size as a standard 1500 SA. There is about a .25" difference in screw spacing and the diameter of the reciever and bolt is reduced. Think Model 7 vs. 700 Remington.


Not enough to be called truly free floated, and there is some flex in the forend. I try to make sure I have the bag just ahead of the front screw before each shot. I also find my groups shrink if I bench the rifle like Mark Bansner suggests at about 8 minutes into this video.

I'm using a front bag similar to a Caldwell Deadshot and my rear bag is from the Deadshot. I quit wrapping my thumb a few years ago, when I read a few articles about how it causes groups to open by torque on the stock being introduced. However, I tried shooting this rifle a few different ways. I also realize my sample size of 9 total rounds in 3 groups is to small to prove anything definitive.


1- Forend hold, thumb wrapped around grip. 2.63 MOA, group area 1.85" wide 2.55" high, 1.22 MOA mean radius, POI/POA 1.01 right 2.53" low.

2- Forend hold, no thumb. 2.3 MOA, group area 1.58" wide 1.82" high, 0.97 MOA mean radius, POI/POA 2.41" right .77" high.

3- Bansner Method. 1.5 MOA, group area 1.41" wide 1.38" high, .78 MOA mean radius, POI/POA 2.18" right 1.16 low.

Without the suppressor or a brake free recoil isn't an option.

Forget the sled use bags as pictured, free float the barrel or its gunna climb, light barrels heat fast let cool after each shot, make sure it sits in stock well if it moves in stock youll nevr group it , or just bed it. get a good trigger 3 lbs at most. reload ur ammo and neck size it if u can. Keep at it. i have a 700 BDL i had to get a synthetic stock the wood would warp and had to rezero all the time. After 15 Yrs, full dip to match rem camo stock flutted bolt ,rifle baxic trigger, ti firing pin, it holds 1 moa no problem.

 

[greenejc]

The reason I asked about how many .308 rifles you're using is that I shoot three .308's, 6 or 7 30-06's, including four M1's, two 35s, and two 300 WinMags. I found that I either could try to find perfect loads for each rifle or a load that worked 'well enough' in all of them. Since I wanted to be able to use any ammunition I had loaded for any rifle the cartridge was designed for, I opted for 'more than adequate' in one or two, and adequate in the others in that caliber. With the M1's, I have Shuster gas plugs installed and set to shoot 168 to 180 grain bullets with powders in the IMR 4350 range with pressures inside the operating range of the rifles and groups with iron sights around 2" at 100 yards. For the bolt guns, I use the same loads, mostly with 180 grain bullets, with group sizes ranging from 3/4" to 1.25" depending on the rifle. Your barrel twist should be a 1 in 10" so it should stabilize all practical bullet weights for the .308. If you're only shooting factory loads, getting much better than 1.5" is going to be hard, but that may be good enough for distances to 400 yards on elk. I'd go with a 165 to 180 grain bullet for the penetration, though. I think you already know how to rest and sight a rifle. My advice is go shoot it and get used to it.

 

[greenejc]

Assuming your rifle has a good barrel and is bedded properly, it may "like" a certain bullet and not others. Also -- normally the accuracy of a rifle depends on consistent vibrations of the rifle upon firing!
I had 2 ea. 270WSM's in lightweight rifles, both under 7.5 lbs and one being closer to 7 lbs -- the heavier one scoped with a Vortex 4x16 HST and the other with a Leupold 3x9 VariX II. I've found both rifles "liked" lighter bullets and heavy bullets rather than mid weight bullets in 270 caliber. That means they both shot well (3/4 inch or less) with 110 Barnes TSX bullets and 150 gr Sierra SPBT. I've tried many 130 gr and 140 gr bullets in both rifles and they've never as accurate as the 110's and 150's.
Often a rifle "likes" certain bullets and not others. So try as many different brands and weight bullets as you can.
Another thing is how you hold your rifle when shooting off a benchrest! I found both rifles are significantly more accurate when I hold the rifle more "tightly" than allowing free recoil.
Another thing you should consider is this. Your rifle may be affected by what you use for a rest! Your rest should generally be firm and should firmly hold the rifle without "bouncing" upon recoil. Are you using a plastic front rest? If so, invest in a heavier front rest such as the Bald Eagle Standard Front Rest and sand filled bags, both front & rear. Consistency is the answer to accuracy with a lightweight rifle that has any kind of recoil!
Another thing to consider! Your rifle may show you a very different level of accuracy when hunting and shooting off shooting sticks or a tripod rather than from the benchrest!

My 30 cals mostly like the Speer HotCor 180, the Sierra GK 165, 180 and 200gr, and Hornaday 168 grain Amax or Match bullets. The pickiest rifle is the Ruger M77MKII, which really likes the Nosler 180gr. Ballistic Tip and the Sierra Gameking or ProHunter in 180grain. All these bullets will shoot inside 1 inch at 100 yards in both -06 bolt guns, and about the same in the .300WinMags. The Remington heavy barrelled .308 will drive tacks with most of them, and my H&K will stay inside 1.5" with most of them. My son-in-law's Savage doesn't like anything over 168 grain. The 03A3 will shoot golfballs at 100 yards with most of these bullets and hanging bowling pins consistently at 300 yards, especially with the Amaxes and the Sierras. Both my Remington ADL 300WinMags will do this with Sierras and Speers in the 180 grain weight, too.

 

[MtPockets]

Sorry if I missed it, but have you done anything with the trigger?
Especially in lighter rifles, a good trigger is an absolute must.

 

[AZ82New]

I am in a similar situation. I purchased a Sako 85 Carbonlight in .308 recently. I tried several different factory loads from Nosler, Barnes, Hornady and Federal. None shot their best groups much better than an inch and a half.

I also handload and I tried several different bullets with very mediocre results. When the Hammer bullets didn't shoot (they are typically very easy to load for), I threw in the towel and sent the rifle back to Sako. They are adamant that this type of performance is not typical of that rifle…..I also tried a different scope and Re-checked the scope mounts in order to rule that out.

So far, I have some thoughts on this. One, I think a lighter barrel is just going to be more temperamental. So theoretically, you could stumble onto that perfect bullet with the optimal seating depth and hit a home run. However, I think when you're working with a factory barrel, even if it's a Sako, there is just inherent inconsistency in that steel when it heats up. I believe this because my custom rifles are just more consist and predictable. If a group sucks, it sucks the same way every time. In a factory rifle, the groups could suck but be totally unpredictable in how they suck. Likewise, you get a good load in a good barrel, it's very consistent. A good load in a factory barrel and it's consistent *most of the time*, but not always.

I say all that to say this; I think you may actually just be getting the inherent capabilities of that thin factory barrel, in a less than optimal stock (that you should not dump money into). Really, for like $700, that thing is shooting exactly like my $3300 Sako. That's not bad for the money. I have one myself.

In reality, so long as the first shot before the barrel heats up, consistently, goes into the same spot and the second shot in the string is under MOA away, that is 99% of hunting right there. I bet you it's probably capable of that right now and will in the end, do exactly what you need it too.

 

[greenejc]

I am in a similar situation. I purchased a Sako 85 Carbonlight in .308 recently. I tried several different factory loads from Nosler, Barnes, Hornady and Federal. None shot their best groups much better than an inch and a half.

I also handload and I tried several different bullets with very mediocre results. When the Hammer bullets didn't shoot (they are typically very easy to load for), I threw in the towel and sent the rifle back to Sako. They are adamant that this type of performance is not typical of that rifle…..I also tried a different scope and Re-checked the scope mounts in order to rule that out.

So far, I have some thoughts on this. One, I think a lighter barrel is just going to be more temperamental. So theoretically, you could stumble onto that perfect bullet with the optimal seating depth and hit a home run. However, I think when you're working with a factory barrel, even if it's a Sako, there is just inherent inconsistency in that steel when it heats up. I believe this because my custom rifles are just more consist and predictable. If a group sucks, it sucks the same way every time. In a factory rifle, the groups could suck but be totally unpredictable in how they suck. Likewise, you get a good load in a good barrel, it's very consistent. A good load in a factory barrel and it's consistent *most of the time*, but not always.

I say all that to say this; I think you may actually just be getting the inherent capabilities of that thin factory barrel, in a less than optimal stock (that you should not dump money into). Really, for like $700, that thing is shooting exactly like my $3300 Sako. That's not bad for the money. I have one myself.

In reality, so long as the first shot before the barrel heats up, consistently, goes into the same spot and the second shot in the string is under MOA away, that is 99% of hunting right there. I bet you it's probably capable of that right now and will in the end, do exactly what you need it too.

I agree with AZ82New. If your cold barrel shot is going where its supposed to and the second shot hits within 1" to 1.2", that's pretty good for a thin barrelled rifle from the factory. You're getting the first three shots to go inside 1.2" or so. See what it does at 300 yards and if its inside 4.5" at 300 yards it'll work. The rifle you've got wasn't designed to be a target rifle and won't turn into one unless you do things to it like re-barrelling. About the only thing you might do other than just rebuilding it is get one of Eric Cortina's muzzle brake/barrel tuners and use it, but that will preclude the silencer.

 

[ducky]

what is the barrel diameter at the muzzle?

.472" with thread protector removed.

Gotcha Ducky, I misunderstood where the rubbing was happening.
Keep shooting!

No problem, I don't splain things well enough sometimes.

Northerngos in post #35 is spot on with his assessment. Try a bi pod. These little rifles are twitchy. Pod and stable tear bag will help off the bench. One MOA or 1.5 moa out of these in field conditions is ok for most hunting scenarios.

Might try one if I still had one. I think my daughter ran off with my last Harris bi-pod when she moved out. I found a bipod to be a hassle most of the time hunting so I quit using them. I just use my pack most of the time for prone shooting, and used to carry a set of Stoney Point shooting sticks for sitting and kneeling shots, The last solo elk hunt I carried a Bog tripod with Switcheroo so I could use it as a rest and for my spotter.

Have you tried to tune the barrel by either adjusting the seating depth of the projectile in the cartridge or by putting an adjustable barrel tuner on the muzzle? I would suggest finding the bullet/ammo that you want to use for your application, and then adjusting your seating depth to find the best. I have taken rifles that people would say "won't shoot," and simply found the seating depth that the barrel liked of the factory ammo that they were using to have them shoot sub MOA. Obviously not all guns will, but most will.

I'm shooting factory ammunition and I want to be able to shoot suppressed. So no to both your questions.

One more question: do you have more than one .308?

I do have more than one .308, I have a M700 that I stole the NF off of. My daughter also exclusively hunts with the .308 Win. However, she moved to Pueblo for work and took her rifles with her.

Thank you for your service! I retired in 2017 myself, from the Army Reserves. I'd probably still be in if it wasn't for my accident.

I have a good buddy with a private range out in Calhan, and another that lives in Falcon. We've hunted together for 20 years now. I used to live off of Stetson Hills, West of Powers. I couldn't stand the daily commute to and from Ft Carson and needed a job that allowed my wife to stay home with our daughter. So I joined the railroad in 2012, got a bump in pay and was able to buy some acreage East of La Junta Colorado and lower my mortgage by half of what it was.

Sorry if I missed it, but have you done anything with the trigger?
Especially in lighter rifles, a good trigger is an absolute must.

I've done absolutely nothing with this rifle other than disassemble, degrease, lube, reassemble, mount a scope, barrel break in, mess with action screw torques, swap scopes, and shoot suppressed/unsuppressed. The trigger other than being the typical HACT 2 stage is really decent, I haven't put a scale on it. I don't know if there is even an aftermarket trigger for this rifle yet, or if a Timney for a Howa 1500 fits.

I'm not trying to make any changes until I can shoot this rifle decently as is. Howa gives a Sub MOA with premium ammunition guarantee for 3 shots. I certainly think the rifle is capable of MOA for 3 shots, but I'd like to get at least 3 three shot groups to stay 1.5" or less consistently. Once I can start doing that, I'll start making changes one at a time to the rifle to see if I can get groups to tighten up.

 

[AZ82New]

You can put a timney on it. Works just fine.

The MOA guarantee means that it *can* shoot a three shot group that is 1 MOA. Doesn't mean they will guarantee it every time, even if you do thing's perfectly.

.472 is pretty darn thin, that's a featherweight barrel for sure.

Try shooting three shots, then letting it cool for 20 minutes before you try your next group. Heat will have a significant effect on that barrel.

 

[ducky]

You can put a timney on it. Works just fine.

The MOA guarantee means that it *can* shoot a three shot group that is 1 MOA. Doesn't mean they will guarantee it every time, even if you do thing's perfectly.

.472 is pretty darn thin, that's a featherweight barrel for sure.

Try shooting three shots, then letting it cool for 20 minutes before you try your next group. Heat will have a significant effect on that barrel.

Thanks for the info on Timney. However, I'm not worried about the trigger. I don't have any issues with the factory trigger and it can be adjusted.

I understand how the factory guarantees work. That's why I want to stack at least three groups of three shots in 1.5 MOA before I mess with bedding or triggers. One sub MOA group means nothing.

I believe the rifle is capable, me on the other hand is a different story. So far I can't get close to anything close to 1.5 MOA unsuppressed. Suppressed I'm getting close.

I've been letting the barrel cool to the touch between groups.

 

[mnoland30]

I have a 5.5 lb. rifle (w/o scope) in 7mm WSM, which is a joy to carry in steep mountains. I'm jealous of your lighter rifle. I load mine down so the recoil isn't so brutal. If I'm shooting for groups, I wait 5 minutes between shots (and I shoot most in the winter). I get much better groups with handloads than factory ammo. Of course

Terminal Ballistics Research has a lot of great information on their website. He recommends stiffening the stock with bedding compound. I haven't tried it, but I know my forend is pretty flimsy. He also recommends holding down the front of the rifle.

With practice, I shoot almost as well off my shooting sticks as off the bench. X2 on having your front rest so you're sitting up straight. I have a sand filled shot bag with an old boot top sewn onto it. I set it on top of a tool box on the bench to get the right height.