Lead Poisoning
- Thread starter ButterBean
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adam32+P
Well-Known Member
Yeah I just noticed it's been deleted. That's disappointing, it had some good info in it.
7.62 Gunner
Well-Known Member
Why are you making this about you?
I don't use your bullets and I never will because my high bc lead based target bullets shred critters, and they're literally 1/2 the price.
I'm Not slighting your product I'm sure it's fantastic.
I guarantee we are 99% on the same page politically, but you need to recognize propaganda when it's presented, and realize it's simply selective data compilation with an end goal to create some sort of federal ban on lead ammo.
Tell me I'm wrong and I'll provide you with a firehose of examples where the EPA has created restrictive legislation based on leftist political narrative backed in "science".
If there's one mistake conservatives have made over the past 40 + Years in dealing with libs it's operating on "Good Faith".
They play the long game and we don't, they ask for "reasonable" gun restrictions and we comply, how's that working out?
Ucsdryder
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2016
- Messages
- 1,571
This is different. This isn't for political reasons, it's for financial reasons.
As far as everything else you stated, I agree. I have 2 experiences with monos. 1 had a caved tip and nothing else, looked like a FMJ that had a damaged tip. The only reason the animal was found was that it went in hard quartering away. A FMJ penetrates a long way when it doesn't mushroom!!
The other one shed its petals and left a .284 hole in and a .284 hole out. At 240 yards it required a follow up shot to anchor the buck. If that deer had been in thick timber it would have been nearly impossible to find him because there was almost zero blood from the entrance or exit hole. Why someone would want a $1.25 bullet that's designed to leave caliber sized exit is beyond me. All that said, I am considering using a 88gr in a 6.5cm for my 12 year old daughter to help mitigate recoil…but she weighs 68 pounds with her boots on.
As an engin-nerd I do find the theory interesting but I also think there needs to be other considerations to be ruled out also.
One is water. Water sources can contain levels of metals. Some is natural some is elevated due to activities such as mining, drilling, or other things that disturb the soil or water table.
Another is soil. As animals scavenge, they will eat some amount of soil/dirt. Some burrowing animals actually transport soil with their mouths and these are prey to raptors, coyotes, etc. they could ingest or be prone to metals in soil based simply on how they exist/survive.
I would imagine some level of lead is present from our human activities, but not solely hunting. Some is also present from natural occurring levels in water and soil.
The last part is our intervention, such as the raptor center. Don't get me wrong, I think places like this are great. But if we didn't have these, would we even notice and is this really outside of natures norm?
I am not agreeing nor disagreeing with the content of the video or points raised by others. I just want to point out there may be more to the picture and we see a lot of narrow views on certain things when there may be more at play. It's quite possible that all the what if factors I mentioned are an even smaller percentage than the effects of bullets, but it could also be the other way around where bullets are the minority factor of the lead being found in the birds and the natural life cycle is just being studied more. Also, as more people populate these areas there are more occurrences of people intervening with wounded/sick wildlife, which could also be resulting in more intake in the rehab places.
Just because our recording of data may show the frequency increasing, our data set and science very new. It's possible there is a normal level that has existed for hundreds or thousands of years and we are in the infancy of learning in 1 to 2 decades of info, so as our data increases, the frequency of something like this is appearing to show increases as well.
there may be more to consider. Maybe even things I didn't note above. Aliens?
One is water. Water sources can contain levels of metals. Some is natural some is elevated due to activities such as mining, drilling, or other things that disturb the soil or water table.
Another is soil. As animals scavenge, they will eat some amount of soil/dirt. Some burrowing animals actually transport soil with their mouths and these are prey to raptors, coyotes, etc. they could ingest or be prone to metals in soil based simply on how they exist/survive.
I would imagine some level of lead is present from our human activities, but not solely hunting. Some is also present from natural occurring levels in water and soil.
The last part is our intervention, such as the raptor center. Don't get me wrong, I think places like this are great. But if we didn't have these, would we even notice and is this really outside of natures norm?
I am not agreeing nor disagreeing with the content of the video or points raised by others. I just want to point out there may be more to the picture and we see a lot of narrow views on certain things when there may be more at play. It's quite possible that all the what if factors I mentioned are an even smaller percentage than the effects of bullets, but it could also be the other way around where bullets are the minority factor of the lead being found in the birds and the natural life cycle is just being studied more. Also, as more people populate these areas there are more occurrences of people intervening with wounded/sick wildlife, which could also be resulting in more intake in the rehab places.
Just because our recording of data may show the frequency increasing, our data set and science very new. It's possible there is a normal level that has existed for hundreds or thousands of years and we are in the infancy of learning in 1 to 2 decades of info, so as our data increases, the frequency of something like this is appearing to show increases as well.
there may be more to consider. Maybe even things I didn't note above. Aliens?
If you could all just step back and see yourselves as you've been on here with anything related to Hammer. Maturity will let something stand on its own merits. If there's more hype than merit it'll quietly go away by itself over time. Trying to kill something or put it down only gives it more promotion and degrades the forum in general.I don't mean to be argumentive, but this is a case in point. While you likely didn't mean to say it how it sounded in the first post, it's the kind of emotional absolutism that feeds contention and is unhelpful in forum discussions. If you could apply the same deference to others (i.e. the "which is it" charge about gelatin tests) you'll likely realize there are factors that make both reasonable. I'm going to leave a lot lay that bugs me about what I've been seeing on here, but I beg all of us to be more reflective about what makes us feel threatened.
"Making a claim and saying it over and over doesn't make it true" applies to all of us.
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
I had an interesting conversation with a wildlife biologist for the MT fish and game last week. His main body of work is with birds. I had always figured that birds would be more affected by varmint hunting. When we hunt gophers at my uncle's place, we will shoot a 1k in a day. We don't pick them up. At the end of the day we go back to the house and watch the feast. All kinds of scavenger bites and birds of prey come in and clean it up. It's fun to watch. What he told me is during big game hunting season there is an increase in lead toxicity in the raptors. He said during the summer the raptors make most of their living on live prey. As winter comes in they transition from live prey to scavenging and unfortunately that coincides with hunting season. He has spent years setting up game cameras on carcasses and gut piles. He said he has never set up on one and not had a large bird of prey show up. I guess it is good that they are around to show up, but the point is they don't pass up on the meal.As an engin-nerd I do find the theory interesting but I also think there needs to be other considerations to be ruled out also.
One is water. Water sources can contain levels of metals. Some is natural some is elevated due to activities such as mining, drilling, or other things that disturb the soil or water table.
Another is soil. As animals scavenge, they will eat some amount of soil/dirt. Some burrowing animals actually transport soil with their mouths and these are prey to raptors, coyotes, etc. they could ingest or be prone to metals in soil based simply on how they exist/survive.
I would imagine some level of lead is present from our human activities, but not solely hunting. Some is also present from natural occurring levels in water and soil.
The last part is our intervention, such as the raptor center. Don't get me wrong, I think places like this are great. But if we didn't have these, would we even notice and is this really outside of natures norm?
I am not agreeing nor disagreeing with the content of the video or points raised by others. I just want to point out there may be more to the picture and we see a lot of narrow views on certain things when there may be more at play. It's quite possible that all the what if factors I mentioned are an even smaller percentage than the effects of bullets, but it could also be the other way around where bullets are the minority factor of the lead being found in the birds and the natural life cycle is just being studied more. Also, as more people populate these areas there are more occurrences of people intervening with wounded/sick wildlife, which could also be resulting in more intake in the rehab places.
Just because our recording of data may show the frequency increasing, our data set and science very new. It's possible there is a normal level that has existed for hundreds or thousands of years and we are in the infancy of learning in 1 to 2 decades of info, so as our data increases, the frequency of something like this is appearing to show increases as well.
there may be more to consider. Maybe even things I didn't note above. Aliens?
My take from that is you can't deny that the ammo we choose to hunt with has an effect on the raptors. In fairness, there is certainly an argument about how much of a problem it is.
For me, as a manufacturer of lead free bullets, it is a bonus that my product doesn't contribute to the issue. Is it THE issue that makes hunters choose our product? I don't think so, but maybe, and that's fine. It's not the reason that we turned from lead core bullets to copper and finally ended up manufacturing copper bullets. As hunters we were looking for better terminal performance. Our quest led us to copper. Looking for less meat damage and quicker terminal performance. Everything we tried had some sort of issue, and we wound up making them our selves. So, we want people to find us and use our product for the same reason that decided to manufacturer Hammer Bullets, superior terminal performance and less meat loss.
And I respect and applaud you for the effort even though I don't run your projos in all my rifles. Our hunting experience with your bullets has so far met or exceeded our expectations based on the "claims".
For sure, plane hazards are a thing. If that dude would have had a label to read on that plane... Or maybe he was trying to read it and it took him that long to decipher. That could be a problem.And planes
I personally think every product in the world needs some sort of warning label on itso that unknowing people or animals can't be accidentally harmed in any way shape or form -- you know, like " HOT coffee might be hot" --- or "don't put superglue in your eye"--- or maybe " don't drink antifreeze"-- or " don't put this plastic bag over your head"
I still haven't figured out why forks or steak knives don't say " do not stab in eyeball" yet.
( hopefully you can hear the tone in my voice)
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buckbrush
Well-Known Member
How can they monitor this? Are they pulling blood samples and analyzing them from the same live birds throughout the year? I'm suspicious of virtually anything wildlife biologist claim in this state...for various reasons.
horsefor4
Well-Known Member
I have heard down in South America were they have the large dove population after they shoot and kill thousands of doves the raptors come in and clean up all the doves they don't pickup all shot with lead ammo and from what i have been told there is no shortage of raptors.
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
They see more birds with lead toxicity in the fall than they see the rest of the year. They don't catch birds and test them over and over.
