Lathe and Mill Recomendations??

[Clark]

I have been doing rebarreling since 2000.

I am on my 4th lathe, a Precision Mathews 1236, that I have modified the DRO and other things. It cost $4k in 2009 from Machine tool on line
PM1340GT Gunsmith's High Precision Metal Lathe

I am on my 2nd Mill, a used 1969 Bridgeport from Ebay that cost me $10k and $2k shipping in 2015.

I am still on my first wife, I married her in 1976. I met her in an electrical engineering lab. The engagement set of rings cost me $1100.

 

[westcliffe01]

I guess the point I was trying to make is that starting with the 60k investment, one could get into making custom rifles and receivers and having the equipment working for you, instead of being relatively limited by what you can do with all manual equipment. In my neck of the woods, gunsmiths seem to be a dying breed. The prices being charged and lead time expectations are such that it is cheaper and faster to buy a custom rifle from someone who is equipped with CNC capability like Pierce, than to accurize a Rem 700 action at a local smith.

 

[Deleted member 46119]

If you are going to make your living doing machining and gun smithing, yes I would recommend any of those big machines.

For the hobby guy doing his own. Not so much. It's space and budget. Oh and yes, what will happen when you are no longer there to turn on the power. Sad thought for all of us, however, I'm a realist.

Patience and practice on the small machines will enable you to make anything.

With a Sherline CNC conversion of my own work, I was holding .01MM for electric motor parts for micro radio control planes. That was 12+ years ago.

With a great deal of care and tuning. I have my PM1127VF holding .0005 for 2" unsupported Aluminum, 303 Stainless and barrel stock from a decommed 1903A3.

As for chatter, yes indeed. You really have to work on sharp tools, cut angle, feed rates. I'm getting better. I am || far from starting the tenon work for a model 1884 (1873) Trapdoor. This is a square thread 12 pitch .036 (ish) x .030 (ish).

The one made by the gun smith of 35+ years showed a great deal of chatter. If I meet or exceed his quality, I will be pleased.

I've made centerfire conversion firing pins for rolling blocks. That was very cool.

At 73, RoyinIdaho only needs as big as he needs. a PM1127-vf-lb and PM932M will do it. Like I said, the biggest, that you can fit and afford.

 

[westcliffe01]

The basis for my suggestion is that the OP is in his 40's and looking to start a second career. Home shop gunsmiths with a manual lathe and mill are certainly around, but are going to be limited in what can be done and at what rate, compared to a machine you can load a piece of bar into and push a button.

 

[shortgrass]

The basis for my suggestion is that the OP is in his 40's and looking to start a second career. Home shop gunsmiths with a manual lathe and mill are certainly around, but are going to be limited in what can be done and at what rate, compared to a machine you can load a piece of bar into and push a button.

You still have to do the programing and work the 'bugs' out it,,,, and I've seen complicated programs take many days. I started my career as a manual machinist (mechanical automatics) and have transitioned to CNC. What I know about tooling is a lot more than 'it comes out of a little plastic box'. I had 16yrs of experience as a job shop machinist before I went to school. If you go with CNCs you will have to become so specialized you will no longer be a "gunsmith", but a "specialty machine shop". Someone look up the definition of "CUSTOM". While you're at it, look up the 'American Custom Gunmakers Guild". Those guys have 'skills' that aren't stored in the memory of a CNC machine tool. A 'real' gunsmith does a lot more than machine work. That's a all a machinist does,,,, machine work........... As for being 'limited' by not having CNCs,,,,,,, you are limited only by your knowledge and imagination, or your lack of both.

 

[Trickymissfit]

an old guy that I used to know was always tinkering in his shop. Now his shop had a 440 volt electrical system. He had a government surplus lathe, knee mill, and a Taft Pierce surface grinder. Bought the surplus equipment for pennies on the dollar (about a dime a pound!). He went an inspected them, and literally bought them for about two thousand dollars. Ask me how much I'd charge him to put scales on the lathe and mill. Told him it was going to cost him a lot of beer and pizza. I used Anilam scales and their box (install better than the typical Hidenhand), plus I knew I could get a deal on them. Took a weekend to get this work done (Freddie had to make several brackets). The lathe was a Monarch 14x48 that even had a Buck chuck and a very nice four jaw with it. After it was up and running I worked the bed over to get it cutting strait, and then tightened the spindle bearings (lathe had very little time on it). Cross slide gib had to be spotted, and the compound was as new. I doubt the knee mill (K&T) had a hundred hours on it! It was almost perfect (even the grey paint!)

Now for what you dread! Freddie needed a good mill vise. He found a nice used Kurt, and some arbors. Made several sets of parallels, and had me harden them. The Taft Pierce is a .000050 grinder, and Fred was a hell of a tool maker. Then Fred had to buy some chuck jaws ($$$), and an Alorus tool block. In the end he had close to $2K in the tool block and tool holders alone! The grinder didn't come with a chuck, and that was some serious money. He bought a Chinese chuck, and liked to never got it ground! Found a good used indexing head with the tail stock, and had me touch it (more beer and ribs this time). Last time I talked with Fred he was getting a nice Niken compound rotary table (was afraid to tell the wife how much!). Plus he was looking for looking for a set of collets and the head for the lathe. His $2K investment came closer to $15K! Those parts new would be close to $25K.
gary

 

[westcliffe01]

Shortgrass, if you were to look at how the "toolroom" machines work, you can set a spindle RPM and take cuts by using the rotary encoder and treating the display as a DRO. You can also "teach" the lathe how to make a part by doing the operations manually and the running the code that is auto generated. As the person develops skills he can move on to writing real G code and creating proper tool offsets etc. In other words, they have made the machine very easy to use for "one off" jobs where one does not have the time to write G code or create toolpaths in a CAD/CAM package.

You still have to do the programing and work the 'bugs' out it,,,, and I've seen complicated programs take many days. I started my career as a manual machinist (mechanical automatics) and have transitioned to CNC. What I know about tooling is a lot more than 'it comes out of a little plastic box'. I had 16yrs of experience as a job shop machinist before I went to school. If you go with CNCs you will have to become so specialized you will no longer be a "gunsmith", but a "specialty machine shop". Someone look up the definition of "CUSTOM". While you're at it, look up the 'American Custom Gunmakers Guild". Those guys have 'skills' that aren't stored in the memory of a CNC machine tool. A 'real' gunsmith does a lot more than machine work. That's a all a machinist does,,,, machine work........... As for being 'limited' by not having CNCs,,,,,,, you are limited only by your knowledge and imagination, or your lack of both.

 

[westcliffe01]

I got a surface grinder for <$900 which came out a "strategic reserve" bunker. I doubt it had 1000 hours on it. All feeds are hydraulic, parts are hard to find thus it has no commercial value, but OK for hobby shop use. I intend to convert the feed system to servo so it will be more reliable and less finicky to set up.

an old guy that I used to know was always tinkering in his shop. Now his shop had a 440 volt electrical system. He had a government surplus lathe, knee mill, and a Taft Pierce surface grinder. Bought the surplus equipment for pennies on the dollar (about a dime a pound!). He went an inspected them, and literally bought them for about two thousand dollars. Ask me how much I'd charge him to put scales on the lathe and mill. Told him it was going to cost him a lot of beer and pizza. I used Anilam scales and their box (install better than the typical Hidenhand), plus I knew I could get a deal on them. Took a weekend to get this work done (Freddie had to make several brackets). The lathe was a Monarch 14x48 that even had a Buck chuck and a very nice four jaw with it. After it was up and running I worked the bed over to get it cutting strait, and then tightened the spindle bearings (lathe had very little time on it). Cross slide gib had to be spotted, and the compound was as new. I doubt the knee mill (K&T) had a hundred hours on it! It was almost perfect (even the grey paint!)

Now for what you dread! Freddie needed a good mill vise. He found a nice used Kurt, and some arbors. Made several sets of parallels, and had me harden them. The Taft Pierce is a .000050 grinder, and Fred was a hell of a tool maker. Then Fred had to buy some chuck jaws ($$$), and an Alorus tool block. In the end he had close to $2K in the tool block and tool holders alone! The grinder didn't come with a chuck, and that was some serious money. He bought a Chinese chuck, and liked to never got it ground! Found a good used indexing head with the tail stock, and had me touch it (more beer and ribs this time). Last time I talked with Fred he was getting a nice Niken compound rotary table (was afraid to tell the wife how much!). Plus he was looking for looking for a set of collets and the head for the lathe. His $2K investment came closer to $15K! Those parts new would be close to $25K.
gary

 

[Clark]

I can't follow Tricky Misfit, a REAL machinist with me being a putz, but I am good biz man.

I think that there are few used manual lathes of rebarreling size out there that are a bargain.
So getting a new Chinese lathe may be cost effective.

But manual mills of gunsmithing size are being sold like scrap iron on Ebay.
There are not enough gunsmiths to soak up a Bridgeport or Lagun every day.
So buying a used mill may be cost effective.

 

[shortgrass]

Shortgrass, if you were to look at how the "toolroom" machines work, you can set a spindle RPM and take cuts by using the rotary encoder and treating the display as a DRO. You can also "teach" the lathe how to make a part by doing the operations manually and the running the code that is auto generated. As the person develops skills he can move on to writing real G code and creating proper tool offsets etc. In other words, they have made the machine very easy to use for "one off" jobs where one does not have the time to write G code or create toolpaths in a CAD/CAM package.

You made my point for me! Go to school to become a machinist, not a gunsmith. With the business model you propose he'll have no need to learn the finer points of metal finishing (spraying on CerrCoat doesn't count) , glass bedding, fitting a new butt stock to replace a broken one, install an oversized hand and time a S&W, tune-up an A-5 for the bird hunter, fit a new firing pin and disc to that AyA, re-cut the sear notch on that 1885 hammer and reharden it, or fit and finish a fine piece of English Walnut, let alone checker it . Being a gunsmith and being a machinist are two different things. Few, if any, leave an instructional institution with everything they need to start out at the "top". Making actions and other 'parts' and supporting $100,000 worth of machinery and tooling (that's 'tool room',, not production), he'd have to be 'right
up there'. After graduation is when the real learning begins, just ask any good lawyer, welder, doctor, diesel mechanic or anyone else that 'schooled' to learn a trade. If you applied yourself you learned the basics, but all those little problems that crop up along the way are yours to figure out!

 

[Clark]

When I got an electrical engineering degree, I did not know there were different gauges of wire.