Larger diameter bullets allow more room for error?

[FIGJAM]

Nothing, I mean nothing can beat good shot placement. There are small bore guys and guys that tend to lean to the heavier side. I know there are a ton of guys with a lot more experience than I have shooting game. I have taken a few whitetail deer.. shot some exotics here and there,and shot some big game. I will say the more I hunt, the more gun I usually take. I enjoy some of the banter on here--and love to see the guys say "well my 26 Nosler--will do xxx to an elk".. most either live in elk country or talk a good game on line. I will say I have been on a fair amount of guided hunts, and traveled a bit and hunted some different game in different places. I want to know would the same guy that uses his 6mm on elk..would he let a red deer walk the last day of a hunt he paid 12k for because his 240 weatherby might be marginal on a ranking shot... I will say my 338 bucks the wind better, and hits with more authority than my 7mm in most cases. I always see guy say--well you shoot a 6.5 better than a 338...well that is horse fodder to as one of my favorite guns to shoot is a 338. I try not to be too man-LY and most of my rifles we are muzzle brakes--as I shoot better with them...just some thoughts and some rifle lore I wanted to dispel.

My father did not like to leave the county, he liked to hunt and found a 257 Roberts fit his bill to a tee. He could shoot his rifle and knew it very well. He could hunt everyday, knew the country he was hunting and picked his shots (a lot of what I see on this board)..this is different hunting than a guy going on a once in a life time mule deer or elk hunt. I remember-- I was sitting one evening on a ridge Sheep hunting. Wind was whistling 30 mph and light and time were fading on the hunt--there were no sheep in front of me--but I was glad I had a 7mm mag and not a 243 if the shot arose. That's what I think we are talking about when I see "margin of error".

A couple thoughts here :

1. I haven't run the numbers, but I am guessing it would be tough to get energy from a 243 to equal a 7mm mag, which is why i used the calibers I did.

2. I don't know what bullets you are shooting in the 7mm and your 338, but wind bucking ability is impacted more by ballistic Coefficients than bullet weight and diameter. Thats how I understand it, could be wrong tho.

 

[FIGJAM]

Probably nothing you could actually measure. There will be slightly more direct tissue disruption by the larger diameter bullet but you'd never be able to measure it.

If anything with a well placed heart/lung shot, you might see a difference of a step or two before the animal craters.

That is what I am thinking. I am guessing the difference would be immaterial.

 

[Aoudad shooter1975]

A couple thoughts here :



2. I don't know what bullets you are shooting in the 7mm and your 338, but wind bucking ability is impacted more by ballistic Coefficients than bullet weight and diameter. Thats how I understand it, could be wrong tho.

Nope you are right as rain.. I shoot 168-175 in my 7mm mag..and 250s in my 33s...they really buck the wind about the same...I will add in my opinion when game is hit correctly the larger caliber with a well constructed bullets seems to win out--every time. I also will say most people do not shoot enough in field type positions to be completely comfortable with their firearm and caliber (me included) therefore effecting shot placement.

 

[FIGJAM]

Nope you are right as rain.. I shoot 168-175 in my 7mm mag..and 250s in my 33s...they really buck the wind about the same...I will add in my opinion when game is hit correctly the larger caliber with a well constructed bullets seems to win out--every time. I also will say most people do not shoot enough in field type positions to be completely comfortable with their firearm and caliber (me included) therefore effecting shot placement.

Its tough to match the energy the big 33's bring to the table - also why I left them off my original list. Lol. Energy numbers can be matched with the three I listed - you just have to ramp up the velocity on the smaller 264s and 284s to compete with the heavy 308s energy

 

[WildRose]

A couple thoughts here :

1. I haven't run the numbers, but I am guessing it would be tough to get energy from a 243 to equal a 7mm mag, which is why i used the calibers I did.

2. I don't know what bullets you are shooting in the 7mm and your 338, but wind bucking ability is impacted more by ballistic Coefficients than bullet weight and diameter. Thats how I understand it, could be wrong tho.

Your BC's are calculated based on the length of the bullet, length from Ogive to tip, secant/tangent ogive, diameter, weight, and sectional density.

It's not a simple estimate.

 

[WildRose]

That is what I am thinking. I am guessing the difference would be immaterial.

The biggest difference with the larger diameter bullets is in the much greater energy and higher BC's at any give range beginning with relatively close MV's.

What you can do with a 6.5 at 600yds, you can do with a 7mm at 700yds, a .30 cal at 900yds, and a bit 33 to about 1200yds energy wise.

Put any of them where they belong though with enough energy to function as designed and you still have a dead critter though.

 

[laker]

I watched 2 elk shot this year not including my own. First was with 300 rum 210 berger 3100 FPS. First shot was 240 yards and second shot 260 yards before she tipped over. Both shots perfect lung shots.

Second elk was 250 yards with 6.5-06 140 grain berger at a mild 2800fps out of the wife's gun. First shot was in the lungs and before she could get back on the cow it tipped over within less than 10 yards. Now supposedly the 300 rum should have killed that cow quicker than the 6.5-06 did. But it didn't

 

[.300H&H]

And there ya have it, the .264 is THE new elk caliber.

 

[Mach 1]

I watched 2 elk shot this year not including my own. First was with 300 rum 210 berger 3100 FPS. First shot was 240 yards and second shot 260 yards before she tipped over. Both shots perfect lung shots.

Second elk was 250 yards with 6.5-06 140 grain berger at a mild 2800fps out of the wife's gun. First shot was in the lungs and before she could get back on the cow it tipped over within less than 10 yards. Now supposedly the 300 rum should have killed that cow quicker than the 6.5-06 did. But it didn't

Your wife is just a better shot I guess lol. Bigger diameter bullets arent majic, they still need the shooter to do there part. If both rounds were put in identical spots with identically constructed bullets the 300 would have out preformed the 6.5-06

 

[Mach 1]

I agree with everything you said - let me ask a follow-up question:

There is a 140gr 264 bullet that leaves the muzzle at 3300 fps and arrives at 500 yards with 2200 ft lbs of energy.

There is a 200 gr .308 bullet that leaves at 2850 but also arrives at 500 yards with 2200 ft lbs of energy.

Bullets are the same construction - something that will do exactly what you described above, reliable expansion, golf ball sized exit etc. will there be a material difference in performance, or the wound channel?

I am thinking no, but could be wrong.

First off we need to compare Apples to apples. If you compare the .308 215 Berger to the .264 142smk you dont get the same results that you came up with.
The 215 hybrid at 2850fps has 1475 ft lbs of energy and is going 1749fps and is blown off 4.9moa at 1000 yards with a 90 degree 10 mph wind.
The 142 smk at 3200fps has 1080 ft lbs of energy and is going 1851 fps and is blown off 5.0 moa at 1000 yards with a 90 degree 10 mph wind.
They are equal in all areas except for energy and that's not even close. The 215gr Berger wins. Granted you can argue that you could load a 150gr bullet in the 264 cal but I can also load up to a 240smk or the 230 berger gr bullet in the 30 cal. Both of these loads are practical and achievable.

 

[.300H&H]

I would think the example from broz on last page would be enlightening. If a 7mm can't keep up how would a 6.5. The above is from Nathan Foster, over 8500 head of game harvested...

 

[FIGJAM]

First off we need to compare Apples to apples. If you compare the .308 215 Berger to the .264 142smk you dont get the same results that you came up with.
The 215 hybrid at 2850fps has 1475 ft lbs of energy and is going 1749fps and is blown off 4.9moa at 1000 yards with a 90 degree 10 mph wind.
The 142 smk at 3200fps has 1080 ft lbs of energy and is going 1851 fps and is blown off 5.0 moa at 1000 yards with a 90 degree 10 mph wind.
They are equal in all areas except for energy and that's not even close. The 215gr Berger wins. Granted you can argue that you could load a 150gr bullet in the 264 cal but I can also load up to a 240smk or the 230 berger gr bullet in the 30 cal. Both of these loads are practical and achievable.

I ran factory ammo that was available in the strelok app - 264 142 gr ablr going 3300 fps and hornady's precision hunter in 200gr eldx. See screen shots below. My point is that smaller diameter high velocity 264s can generate similar energy as the heavy 308s.

I am not going to get into handloads that isn't the point of this thread. Everybody has special recipes.

If energy at impact and everything else is equal, is the .044 difference in bullet diameter going to make a material difference in wound channel?

This isn't meant to be a ****ing match between handloads or bullets.

 

[FIGJAM]

View attachment 115742

I would think the example from broz on last page would be enlightening. If a 7mm can't keep up how would a 6.5. The above is from Nathan Foster, over 8500 head of game harvested...

I have heard mixed results from the 195 bergers - lots of reviews saying they aren't expanding reliably etc. Broz review is awesome, but i have to wonder if a lot of that has to do with the bullet itself.

 

[Mach 1]

I ran factory ammo that was available in the strelok app - 264 142 gr ablr going 3300 fps and hornady's precision hunter in 200gr eldx. See screen shots below. My point is that smaller diameter high velocity 264s can generate similar energy as the heavy 308s.

I am not going to get into handloads that isn't the point of this thread. Everybody has special recipes.

If energy at impact and everything else is equal, is the .044 difference in bullet diameter going to make a material difference in wound channel?

This isn't meant to be a ------- match between calibers or handloads or bullets.

I ran factory ammo that was available in the strelok app - 264 142 gr ablr going 3300 fps and hornady's precision hunter in 200gr eldx. See screen shots below. My point is that smaller diameter high velocity 264s can generate similar energy as the heavy 308s.

I am not going to get into handloads that isn't the point of this thread. Everybody has special recipes.

If energy at impact and everything else is equal, is the .044 difference in bullet diameter going to make a material difference in wound channel?

This isn't meant to be a ------- match between handloads or bullets.

You're not comparing apples to apples. The 200 ELD X bullet is not near the best bullet in a 308 caliber. While the 142 bullet you used in the 264 caliber is very near the top in terms of BC for that caliber. If you're going to handpick bullets, use the 230 smk in the 308 cal. The 230 smk at 2800 FPS is what was used for this ballistic calculator print out that's attached. As you can see the 264 calibers just can't touch it.