Energy or bullet diameter most important?

[C-130 Dude]

Personal preference from time in the field. Course if you read up on ballistics, seems most "experts" agree with these basic energy numbers, but I understand your point and agree that less energy with a good bullet and perfect shot placement will do the job. I for one, like to have my game ethically taken dead right there, so to me, there is no over kill on bullet or energy. The above numbers are considered general rules of thumb but by no means the absolute minimum.

Works well for me over the years.

 

[Petey308]

Most hunting bullets have a minimum reccomended velocity so they can expand properly. Particularly with the all copper ones. I tried a couple at minimum speed and they fell flat. 1500 fps is a good point to stay above. I've gone down to 1200, but then you are rapidly approaching transonic (depending on the altitude). You guys already know this stuff. As always, it's what you are comfortable with. It's all good!

Velocity windows will serve you much better than energy. If it's a good bullet that efficiently puts energy to work, you don't require as much. There are plenty of bullets that will punch right through with minimal wounding and had tons of kinetic energy when they did so. So it boils down the impact velocity window for a particular bullet where it will work properly, as designed/constructed.

All that said, if you have a rule of thumb you like and has served well, by all means do what has proven itself to you.

 

[Petey308]

Personal preference from time in the field. Course if you read up on ballistics, seems most "experts" agree with these basic energy numbers, but I understand your point and agree that less energy with a good bullet and perfect shot placement will do the job. I for one, like to have my game ethically taken dead right there, so to me, there is no over kill on bullet or energy. The above numbers are considered general rules of thumb but by no means the absolute minimum.

A lot of "experts" haven't actually properly studied up on terminal ballistics though lol.

Careful with the "E" word too

 

[bigngreen]

I'm regularly hitting elk with around 800-1000 ft lbs of energy, I don't even consider it in my process it's that relevant, it's a fun number to compare things with but I've never seen it translate in an imperial way to making elk dead which I'd the goal.

 

[Petey308]

I'm regularly hitting elk with around 800-1000 ft lbs of energy, I don't even consider it in my process it's that relevant, it's a fun number to compare things with but I've never seen it translate in an imperial way to making elk dead which I'd the goal.

Agreed. You'll ultimately be more productive and successful focusing on impact velocity as your threshold numbers.

 

[Teri Anne]

I agree with the main point you're trying to make. However, a heart and/or lung shot on its own does not kill the animal immediately, nor does it cause it to drop on the spot. Shutting down the CNS causes it to drop on the spot. Hitting the heart and/or lungs allows the animal to bleed out, which means loss of blood pressure, loss of oxygen getting to all the organs and tissues, etc, causing a stroke, etc, etc, etc.

Hitting lungs also causes asphyxiation, so even if the heart is still pumping, that blood is pumping out of the wounded lungs and oxygen is not getting into the blood cells.

So the animal is not going very far because it succumbs to the effects of the wounding.

Animals do not always drop on the spot when hit in the vitals and it doesn't mean shot placement was poor if they do not drop on the spot.

I cannot agree with everybody, nor do I disagree. I have been deer hunting since 1968 but that was with a shotgun restricted to buckshot on a military reservation. Stuck with the shotgun for a couple of years. The first time I hunted deer with a rifle was 1970, I was shooting a Remington 600 in .243 shooting 100 gr soft points. I don't remember the manufacturer.The shot was at the far end of an 80 acre hay field, whatever that distance was, no range finders back then. I suppose if I wanted to I could takeout the quadrangle for the area and figure it out pretty closely. It was well over 100 yards, maybe getting close to 200?? The deer presented a side shot and I took the shot and the bullet hit just behind the shoulder. The deer dropped in place not moving a muscle. The 243 is not known for having a lot of energy but the fact that the deer dropped to a good heart/lung shot surprised me, my X father in law exclaimed something to the effect of, How did that happen with that little pea shooter elephant gun. After that season I traded up to one of the Winchester Model 70's that I still own. It is chambered in .308 and I used that rifle exclusively up until a few years ago when I started playing with a 270. 9 shots out of 10 when hit the deer dropped in place, heart and lung shot out and the 165 gr Nosler Partition found still inside of the animal. On those 1 times the deer did not drop they didn't move more that 10 yards and while the lungs were both a gooey mess the heart was still intact, thus pumping blood into useless lungs.

The 308 loads were handloads, using IMR 4320 approximating the military Lake City Match. The muzzle velocity was somewhere around 2500 FPS and I have no clue what the energy was. The only thing that I know for sure is that if a round of adequate size, in this case 165 grains is placed into the kill zone destroying the heart and lungs, dissipating whatever energy was left inside the deer, the deer went down.

Personally I really don't care what your thoughts and/or arguments are, I am only reporting my experiences over the years. As Ripley says, "Believe it or Not."

 

[jessej]

I cannot agree with everybody, nor do I disagree. I have been deer hunting since 1968 but that was with a shotgun restricted to buckshot on a military reservation. Stuck with the shotgun for a couple of years. The first time I hunted deer with a rifle was 1970, I was shooting a Remington 600 in .243 shooting 100 gr soft points. I don't remember the manufacturer.The shot was at the far end of an 80 acre hay field, whatever that distance was, no range finders back then. I suppose if I wanted to I could takeout the quadrangle for the area and figure it out pretty closely. It was well over 100 yards, maybe getting close to 200?? The deer presented a side shot and I took the shot and the bullet hit just behind the shoulder. The deer dropped in place not moving a muscle. The 243 is not known for having a lot of energy but the fact that the deer dropped to a good heart/lung shot surprised me, my X father in law exclaimed something to the effect of, How did that happen with that little pea shooter elephant gun. After that season I traded up to one of the Winchester Model 70's that I still own. It is chambered in .308 and I used that rifle exclusively up until a few years ago when I started playing with a 270. 9 shots out of 10 when hit the deer dropped in place, heart and lung shot out and the 165 gr Nosler Partition found still inside of the animal. On those 1 times the deer did not drop they didn't move more that 10 yards and while the lungs were both a gooey mess the heart was still intact, thus pumping blood into useless lungs.

The 308 loads were handloads, using IMR 4320 approximating the military Lake City Match. The muzzle velocity was somewhere around 2500 FPS and I have no clue what the energy was. The only thing that I know for sure is that if a round of adequate size, in this case 165 grains is placed into the kill zone destroying the heart and lungs, dissipating whatever energy was left inside the deer, the deer went down.

Personally I really don't care what your thoughts and/or arguments are, I am only reporting my experiences over the years. As Ripley says, "Believe it or Not."

Sometimes we (me) over complicate things

 

[Petey308]

I cannot agree with everybody, nor do I disagree. I have been deer hunting since 1968 but that was with a shotgun restricted to buckshot on a military reservation. Stuck with the shotgun for a couple of years. The first time I hunted deer with a rifle was 1970, I was shooting a Remington 600 in .243 shooting 100 gr soft points. I don't remember the manufacturer.The shot was at the far end of an 80 acre hay field, whatever that distance was, no range finders back then. I suppose if I wanted to I could takeout the quadrangle for the area and figure it out pretty closely. It was well over 100 yards, maybe getting close to 200?? The deer presented a side shot and I took the shot and the bullet hit just behind the shoulder. The deer dropped in place not moving a muscle. The 243 is not known for having a lot of energy but the fact that the deer dropped to a good heart/lung shot surprised me, my X father in law exclaimed something to the effect of, How did that happen with that little pea shooter elephant gun. After that season I traded up to one of the Winchester Model 70's that I still own. It is chambered in .308 and I used that rifle exclusively up until a few years ago when I started playing with a 270. 9 shots out of 10 when hit the deer dropped in place, heart and lung shot out and the 165 gr Nosler Partition found still inside of the animal. On those 1 times the deer did not drop they didn't move more that 10 yards and while the lungs were both a gooey mess the heart was still intact, thus pumping blood into useless lungs.

The 308 loads were handloads, using IMR 4320 approximating the military Lake City Match. The muzzle velocity was somewhere around 2500 FPS and I have no clue what the energy was. The only thing that I know for sure is that if a round of adequate size, in this case 165 grains is placed into the kill zone destroying the heart and lungs, dissipating whatever energy was left inside the deer, the deer went down.

Personally I really don't care what your thoughts and/or arguments are, I am only reporting my experiences over the years. As Ripley says, "Believe it or Not."

I respect and appreciate you sharing your thoughts and experiences.

There's a big plexus of nerves right in the area of the heart and lungs, and hit just right, it'll disrupt and shut down the central nervous system, dropping the animal. With a shot like you described, with damaged lungs and a still beating heart, the animal will bleed out and suffocate very rapidly before it has the chance to recover from being knocked out.

Even smaller calibers can do this with the right bullet and shot placement. Large calibers also do not always do this. It really depends on the bullet being used, the exact shot placement, and the particular animal itself. Not all animals get knocked out easily, yet some do, just like people.

I'm not disputing what you experienced, I'm only offering a bit more insight and explanation into what likely occurred when the animals drop on the spot from a heart/lung shot, and also why they don't always.

Sorry if I offended you in any way.

 

[Teri Anne]

I respect and appreciate you sharing your thoughts and experiences.

There's a big plexus of nerves right in the area of the heart and lungs, and hit just right, it'll disrupt and shut down the central nervous system, dropping the animal. With a shot like you described, with damaged lungs and a still beating heart, the animal will bleed out and suffocate very rapidly before it has the chance to recover from being knocked out.

Even smaller calibers can do this with the right bullet and shot placement. Large calibers also do not always do this. It really depends on the bullet being used, the exact shot placement, and the particular animal itself. Not all animals get knocked out easily, yet some do, just like people.

I'm not disputing what you experienced, I'm only offering a bit more insight and explanation into what likely occurred when the animals drop on the spot from a heart/lung shot, and also why they don't always.

Sorry if I offended you in any way.

Not offended at all. This is a learning place not a place where egos should enter into the discussion. Thank you for your explanation. I'm not a doctor so didn't know about the nerves. Now with that knowledge I can understand why sometimes deer drop and sometimes they don't. I guess I will continue to aim like I have been and hope that the deer will drop when hit.

 

[Frank in the Laurels]

...all things being somewhat equal there's no substitute for .308 or .338 cal holes in the vital area of big game.

 

[StanleyActual]

...all things being somewhat equal there's no substitute for .308 or .338 cal holes in the vital area of big game.

Except .375's, .408's, .416's and .50's

 

[memtb]

I suggested that to Frank about a week ago…..I don't think he saw it! memtb

 

[bigngreen]

Any of you actually kill an elk with big hammers like a big 458, 505 Gibbs or a 50 BMG, you have to put it through both shoulder or hip to shoulder to get anything dramatic, otherwise there's a lot of running before they give out. I used to like some big guns till I detached my retina and had to give them up but there are more effective ways to kill and elk, the 458's do a pretty flashy job with the lightest hollow points but like 520 gr solids blah, punches holes and you get to go find them.

 

[Teri Anne]

Any of you actually kill an elk with big hammers like a big 458, 505 Gibbs or a 50 BMG, you have to put it through both shoulder or hip to shoulder to get anything dramatic, otherwise there's a lot of running before they give out. I used to like some big guns till I detached my retina and had to give them up but there are more effective ways to kill and elk, the 458's do a pretty flashy job with the lightest hollow points but like 520 gr solids blah, punches holes and you get to go find them.

I sincerely hope that this is written in jest. There is no need to use any of these cartridges on an Elk. I don't exactly know what the damage would be from a 458 or 505 but a 50 BMG, if you hit it you might as well leave it for the wolves and bears. A 50 BMG would even tear apart a big Griz or Alaskan Brown to pieces. There is enough rampant silliness out there to even begin to suggest that these should be used on any North or South American game. Leave them for Africa where there are animals big enough that you need something huge to take them down before they turn you into a snack after their main course.