KG12 Copper Cleaner Joke

[Tumbleweed]

Alright, this is a good one and it should remind us all to get back to the basics when problems arise. A year ago I ran out of my Sweets 7.62 copper cleaner which has always worked great but decided to try some of the KG1 carbon cleaner and KG 12 copper cleaner since they were water based and didn't smell so bad. Also heard that they worked great. I typically clean the barrel with both every 15 rounds or so. I started having some accuracy issues at long range about 6 months ago shooting 210VLD's where one shot in a pair or three shot group would drop down and out by 1 MOA or more. I decided that my brass may have some runout issues (couldn't prove it, don't have the tool) and had been fired 4-5 times. I bought a new batch of Nosler brass. Even after loading with the new brass I still would get occasional unexplained "drop outs". I went into the elk season a little nervous but fortunately harvested my bull. 2 months ago I decided to buy some 230 Hybrid Targets for a nice long range hunting advantage over the 210's. I have shot around 60 rounds of the 230's in load development with 5 different seating depths, two powders and even 2 different primers. All 3 shot groups were done at 300 yards but only had three groups that went inside 2". Some went as big as 2 MOA. Re shooting the best loads I could never duplicate the accuracy a second time. Nearly all of my groups have ran inside 13fps ES and around 6 fps SD, some better than that. Today I gave up and decided to clean the rifle before I put it away. A thought hit me, I wonder if this junk is really cleaning my barrel like it should as you don't get blue on the patches as you clean like Sweets does. I took it to the Smith to look at the throat area as this has around 1200 rounds through it now. He said the throat is not excessively worn and still should shoot fine. He proceeded to point out the copper fouling that I had neglected to see for myself because my cleaner shoud be working right? Keep in mind I had just given it a thorough cleaning right before I took the rifle to him. Are you kidding me??lightbulb All this time I've been building up copper in my barrel? 60 rounds of 230's wasted, powder burned, primers and all of the frustration. I will have some BoreTech Eliminator next weekend and I will get this tube truly clean! Sure wish I would have wised up sooner!

 

[Mikecr]

I will have some BoreTech Eliminator next weekend and I will get this tube truly clean!

And how are you going to verify this?
I would verify with a borescope just to be sure.

 

[Broz]

I will have some BoreTech Eliminator next weekend and I will get this tube truly clean! Sure wish I would have wised up sooner!

I have never compared it to KG, but have gone in after many of the popular ones (including Sweets) with BoreTech. I bet you get some blue out of that baby now. Thanks for the report. I had considered trying K12. But I think I will sick with my Boretech.

Jeff

 

[AZShooter]

Any of us can get fooled into thinking things were clean.

I THOUGHT I was getting my 300 RUM clean too. The copper pretty stopped coming out with Bore Tech so I figured it was fine. I finally got a bore scope. I was astonished to find the strangest patternin the first 9 inches.It was a real puzzle. First thought it was some sort of bizarre fire cracking. There were thin ribbons of copper running in what looked like low spots in the burned steel. It turned out to be powder/carbon buildup with fissures that had copper in the cracks. JB and Iosso didn't remove it. Finally went to wrapping a bore brush with steel wool covered with JB. I would do a few strokes, clean out, then inspect. Finally got it all removed. Polished to a high shine with Iosso. Now that I know I'll inspect every cleaning and prevent the buildup.

Sure sucks to shoot all sorts of ammo wondering why it stopped shooting so well isn't it? Wish I had acquired that bore scope sooner.

 

[Browninglover1]

Have any of you guys ever tried Montana Extreme Copper Killer? I just bought a bottle to get all the copper out of my Savage and it was still pulling blue patches after 4 hours worth of work. I don't know if my barrel was really that dirty or if it just pulled the copper out slower than I thought it would.

It has quite the odor too it though, my brother took a little whiff of it to see how strong it was and it made his nose bleed. hahaha

 

[SidecarFlip]

I don't care for water based anything. Being enviromentally correct is one thing Working properly is another.

Like water borne coatings. Enviromentally correct but long lasting, probably not. They are soft and don't lay like real solvent based enamel or catalyized urethane.

I guess I'm old school, I still use Hoppe's Number 9. I like the smell. Smell is a good thing.

I still wash my parts in Stoddard solvent too.

Water is good for one thing IMO... flushing the toilet.

 

[bassin93]

if you are using a brass jig, you can be pulling blue off it.

I started using the Wipe Out foam, and all I can say is WOW. This stuff cuts the carbon and the copper, plus it smells good and you can leave it in your barrel over night if need be. I squirted it in my bore and as the foam expanded out the muzzle it was already pulling blue .

 

[Browninglover1]

if you are using a brass jig, you can be pulling blue off it.

I started using the Wipe Out foam, and all I can say is WOW. This stuff cuts the carbon and the copper, plus it smells good and you can leave it in your barrel over night if need be. I squirted it in my bore and as the foam expanded out the muzzle it was already pulling blue .

I use the Tipton nickel plated jags and have never had problems with them staining any other patches blue unless there's something in the Montana Extreme that reacts with nickel and turns blue like copper.

 

[bigngreen]

KG12 is one of the best copper removers I've used, having a bore scope helps see it working where it doesn't turn blue. If it take me more than a couple rounds with KG12 on a brush then I've let my barrel go way to long. I've quite using Wipe Out or Butches!!!

Here's a test a guy did on the Hide. Our own Copper/Carbon Solvent Test - Sniper's Hide Forums

 

[SidecarFlip]

Gee....

This could turn into an oil thread....lol

On borescopes, I had one before I got seriously into guns. A necessity in a machine shop for looking inside blind holes and cavities......

 

[coues7]

You'd better read THIS before you make a final decision.....KG12 is an extremely good cleaner.

 

[Tumbleweed]

You'd better read THIS before you make a final decision.....KG12 is an extremely good cleaner.

Very interesting tests. Makes me wonder if I need to let this stuff set in the barrel for a while. I think I will still need to pick up some more Sweets to at least confirm that I've got it clean with an absence of all blue on the patches. Thats the only part that has bothered me about K12, I can't visually tell on the patch when the copper is completely gone.

 

[Boss Hoss]

Use Sweets and Iosso Paste and you will never have to make this type of post again. I clean mine down to the bare metal every single time before they go into the safe. People do but the bore scope cannot tell a lie.

 

[Shumba]

if you are using a brass jig, you can be pulling blue off it.

I started using the Wipe Out foam, and all I can say is WOW. This stuff cuts the carbon and the copper, plus it smells good and you can leave it in your barrel over night if need be. I squirted it in my bore and as the foam expanded out the muzzle it was already pulling blue .

Wipe Out is "all that" I have not found a product that gets a bore "bare" clean without abrasives like JB and ISSO like Wipe Out. I shoot a Mcmillan TAC 50 and if you have ever owned a 50 you know they have a propinsity to foul like a sailors mouth. Being around some of the guys that regularly shoot in the 50 cal shooters assoc matches they recomended Wipe Out and it is rediculous how well it works. Looking at the bore with a borescope after using wipe out is pleasure to see nothing but fire cracking with no copper or carbon. Good stuff.

For the most part I have quit using bronze brushes except during break in. I just use Butches Bore shine and patches for normal cleaning and Wipe out when I have time to let the rifle sit for a while. I have always used bronze brushes and after reading the below article (see link) I suprised to find that there are very very few top shooters, barrel makers and even some of the top rifle builders that ever reccomend or let a a bronze brush into their rifle bores. Since I have stopped using brushes I have not noticed any difference in accuracy. I still use them occasionally for the more intense cartridges if a carbon ring develops but very infrequently compard to my old regemin of brushing every 20-30 rounds. I still clean every 20-30 just no brushing. Through a bore scope I cannot tell a difference between level of clean when brushing and not. However, after Wipe Out, short of JB or ISSO, nothing cleans the bore as well in my experience. Read this link I think it will suprise the heck out of many here, I know it did me.

ttp://www.6mmbr.com/borebrushing.html