Keeping it simple with reloading

[Alex Wheeler]

Some guys have done that. Tuned for best es then used a tuner to bring in the accuracy. You can do it. But I dont know of any that have won big matches or set records doing it. Inside of 1k barrel harmonics far overcome es. If I was to get serious about elr where es would eventually overtake barrel harmonics I would explore it.

 

[QuietTexan]

Alex, how much of that 36fps es could be chronograph (or labradar) error. I'm sure they have a tolerance. A 1% error is 30fps with a 3000fps velocity.

More along the lines of 0.1% for LabRaderwhen compared to unnecessarily high-end doppler radars.

LabRadar vs. professional Weibel Doppler Radar benchmark test

I haven’t bought my own LabRadar yet, but I’m seriously tempted.I am shamelessly using my friend’s LabRadar, with all options, for chronographing my ammunition.And he has to carry it too!As if our firearms themselves weren’t enough, the McLaren orange radar always attracts other shooters at the...

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Optical chronos are more subject to error, but Oehler and MagnetoSpeeds are top notch.

 

[Kmccord]

Hard to say exactly how much error it has. He have lined up multiple labs and shoot throughs and they are surprisingly close. We are always doubting the chronys. But have never been able to prove it. I dont think they are lying. One thing for sure, if there is much error it never seems to go the other direction. Literally hundreds if not 1000s of 1000yd groups and what I posted is just what I expect to see. Its very rare to shoot the little groups with small es. The small es groups usually have too much vertical. The single digit group thats tiny at 1k is kind of rare. Dont ask me exactly why it works out this way but it does. I dont think theres anyone out there that posts as many 1000yd groups as I do. And I only post a fraction of what I shoot. Theres guys that shoot more of them then me that do not post online. We all share this stuff with each other. The data base is huge spanning well over 10 years. Its just that not many guys are doing this stuff so it seems to go against the grain of theory.

Glad to hear you say about the small ES doesn't equate to small groups, I have witnessed when load development on a 7mm Rem Mag, the best group with all three touching had an ES of 50 and the one with the lowest ES of 5 had a group just under 1" at 100yds, I never got to test it out to 500 yards, it was my Grandsons Grad present. I have noticed that with other rifles when developing loads, I had been lead to believe small ES and SD will be small groups, but I have noticed large ES has better grouping at times.

 

[BillLarson]

Alex,do you preload for a match.
Or as short range br.shooters do change load between relays...

 

[Muddyboots]

Alex, your comment on cleaning brass. Did you see pressure differences between "uncleaned", "wet cleaned" or "cleaned with media"? I often wonder if media cleaned brass polishes to greater extent, thus affecting case grip to chamber which may increase pressure? The brass surface to chamber surface is one of those interesting areas that does not get a lot of discussion so would appreciate your opinion.

 

[Pdvdh]

I often wonder if media cleaned brass polishes to greater extent, thus affecting case grip to chamber which may increase pressure? The brass surface to chamber surface is one of those interesting areas that does not get a lot of discussion so would appreciate your opinion.

I don't understand how exterior case grip to chamber wall can have any significant effect on internal case pressure. You might get the appearance of differing pressures when looking at the case head, if the case exterior is lubricated, versus grippy. But the internal pressure should be virtually the same between identical loads, no matter the coefficient of friction between the chamber wall and the cartridge case.

 

[QuietTexan]

I don't think it would increase pressure, but bolt thrust could come into play. Pressure signs on the head would change at the same internal pressure, so absent using a strain gauge it could appear that pressure "increased" as signs are worse.

Lubricated might not be the best word either, because if you have oil on the case or in the chamber it actually grips SUPER hard, to the point you can have to hammer a bolt open.

Lack of friction between two more polished surfaces could make bolt thrust worse?

I know, being nit picky

 

[Muddyboots]

My bad, bolt thrust effect is the question not case pressure. Thanks for clarifying my question!

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Alex,do you preload for a match.
Or as short range br.shooters do change load between relays...

Its common to pre load for LR matches. But at my local range Deep Creek, most of us do load at the match. We dont have time to load between targets like short range but we do load for the next day.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Alex, your comment on cleaning brass. Did you see pressure differences between "uncleaned", "wet cleaned" or "cleaned with media"? I often wonder if media cleaned brass polishes to greater extent, thus affecting case grip to chamber which may increase pressure? The brass surface to chamber surface is one of those interesting areas that does not get a lot of discussion so would appreciate your opinion.

Like most guys I started out tumbling my cases because it was common practice. The SS pins came along and I tried it immediately. It beat up my case mouths and effected bullet seating as well as removed the carbon in the necks which I liked so I went back to tumbling. Im sure at some point I just got crunched for time and skipped the tumbling process. I saw zero negatives from that and I have not tumbled a case in over 10 years. Im not saying they shoot better or hold more pressure but they dont shoot worse or hold less pressure and it saves me a lot of work. Its rare to see shiny clean brass at a BR match, so I assume most guys came to the same conclusion. I do know of very good competitors that clean the cases to bare metal, anneal and lube their necks to replace the carbon. Some of them shoot really well, but not any better than the guys that dont do any of that. I dont really enjoy hours or brass work so I only do what shows up on target. I dont clean my hunting brass either. If I was practicing in mud or shooting prs were my cases actually got grit on them Id tumble for a couple minutes to knock it off but not long enough to make them shiny.

 

[cjuve]

My point is guys will get on a ballistics calculator and say you need x es to shoot x vertical based on bullet drop. They ignore barrel harmonics. Theres 12 shots in 3.6 inches of vertical at 1k with 36 fps of es. 9 shots in 2 inches with 23. They will tell you that's not possible. It's very common to see if you shoot groups a lot. I try to help guys improve their accuracy and so many are focused on single digit es when they are shooting .5 moa or bigger. I dont want to hear about single digit es unless your shooting under an inch at 1k or your shooting past a mile.

This is money, and the reason I pay much more attention to the target than the chrono. I test mainly at 600 yds but still see the same correlation with overlapping POI when I have it right. Have you noticed any advantage to choosing a load that shows a particular group shape?

 

[Alex Wheeler]

A touch of vertical is better than a flat tune. It will cut wind better.

 

[Nuclear Worker]

Like most guys I started out tumbling my cases because it was common practice. The SS pins came along and I tried it immediately. It beat up my case mouths and effected bullet seating as well as removed the carbon in the necks which I liked so I went back to tumbling. Im sure at some point I just got crunched for time and skipped the tumbling process. I saw zero negatives from that and I have not tumbled a case in over 10 years. Im not saying they shoot better or hold more pressure but they dont shoot worse or hold less pressure and it saves me a lot of work. Its rare to see shiny clean brass at a BR match, so I assume most guys came to the same conclusion. I do know of very good competitors that clean the cases to bare metal, anneal and lube their necks to replace the carbon. Some of them shoot really well, but not any better than the guys that dont do any of that. I dont really enjoy hours or brass work so I only do what shows up on target. I dont clean my hunting brass either. If I was practicing in mud or shooting prs were my cases actually got grit on them Id tumble for a couple minutes to knock it off but not long enough to make them shiny.

When you say you went back to tumbling but no SS pins. Do you mean you just used water, dish soap and some lemon shine for example? Please explain

 

[WildRose]

When you say you went back to tumbling but no SS pins. Do you mean you just used water, dish soap and some lemon shine for example? Please explain

You'd be amazed at just how clean your brass will get just soaking it for a few days in a mix of purple power, Dawn Dish soap, and water thence simply rinsing it well without any tumbling at all.