Is your bullet big enough, moving fast enough??

[Mr. Red white and blue]

Just my two cents, my tool of choice is a 308 Howa 1500 action 20" heavy barrel laying in a Boyd's tactical stock 3-9×50 vortex crossfire glass and I run handloads pushing non other then a 168 A-max.
I shoot steel out to 1000 and hunt antelope deer and elk at 700 yards with clean kill, it's what I know it's what I use and it gets the job done. Have a good day and God-bless America.

 

[skipglo]

No seasons, no limits, better game density etc. Starvation and infant mortality very high.

Question becomes to me recovery. Back before the net, IDFG had a small study of recovered elk. Those collared, and subsequently recovered by the department (If memory serves) Archery 1 elk per 5 or 6 was actually recovered by the hunter. Firearms 1 per very 4 or 5.

It's not just a study of ballistics (rocket science) but also anatomy and physiology. Substituting those studies for hyperbole leads to those pitiful recovery rates.

That and DISTANCE! Far too many people are drinking the LRH kool-aid! I in 10,000,000 if not 5 x that number...meaning 1 in 50,000,000 shooters can effectively shoot 1000 yards.....and I mean CONSISTENTLY...not O GEE I SHOT A 1000 YARD TARGET....and leave out the part 84 times and hit it twice! There are those who do it....consistently.....but very few and far between. And it's far past time on this site where folks call B.S. instead of CONGRATULATING B.S. POSTERS....like my Dad shot his ELK at 2600 yards....and no...I'm not having a bad day!

 

[Muddyboots]

 

[Bravo 4]

What most guys that gripe about other guys using larger calibers & cartridges do not mention is the flip side of it. You never mention those of us that can and do use them properly. Or the fact that with a larger caliber there is also the capability of having a higher BC projectile, and with a larger case comes more potential to get that higher BC projectile to a higher velocity. What does that equate to? More (better) down range performance. Forget the terminal part of it for just a second and let's talk about what most seem to say is most important…actually hitting your intended target in the intended spot. So let's flip the script for a second and say that statistically the probability of a hit increases with said larger caliber/cartridge combos and the further out you go the more it goes up exponentially due to one factor that nobody can control…the wind. Try and find a smaller caliber/cartridge combo that will exceed (or even match) a .338 or .375 slinging 300-400 grain projectiles with a BC of over well over .8 G1 @ over 3100 fps. That's alright, I'll wait.
You can use whatever you want, I don't really care. You can also spin it however you want to convince yourself, I don't care what you tell yourself to make you feel better. Just remember that there is the ability to perform and then there is just straight up performance! They are not the same.

 

[Chase723]

That's ~1300 ft/lbs of energy that manifested into good terminal performance due to the 2300+ ft/sec retained velocity. If anything you're reinforcing the point. I think 1500 ft/lbs and ~2k ft/sec are just good recommendations. In reality a little less energy assuming the velocity is met or exceeded, or a little less velocity assuming the energy is met or exceeded is still going to result in a dead elk or any other game animal for that matter.

I just brought it up because the OP literally mentioned .243 in the last paragraph of his post. I'm not trying to reinforce anything. This question has been poised 1000x over on this forum. It could be avoided by a couple things 1) Using the search function 2) Putting the skill set to use, shooting a few game animals, and gaining some experience.

 

[Chase723]

What most guys that gripe about other guys using larger calibers & cartridges do not mention is the flip side of it. You never mention those of us that can and do use them properly. Or the fact that with a larger caliber there is also the capability of having a higher BC projectile, and with a larger case comes more potential to get that higher BC projectile to a higher velocity. What does that equate to? More (better) down range performance. Forget the terminal part of it for just a second and let's talk about what most seem to say is most important…actually hitting your intended target in the intended spot. So let's flip the script for a second and say that statistically the probability of a hit increases with said larger caliber/cartridge combos and the further out you go the more it goes up exponentially due to one factor that nobody can control…the wind. Try and find a smaller caliber/cartridge combo that will exceed (or even match) a .338 or .375 slinging 300-400 grain projectiles with a BC of over well over .8 G1 @ over 3100 fps. That's alright, I'll wait.
You can use whatever you want, I don't really care. You can also spin it however you want to convince yourself, I don't care what you tell yourself to make you feel better. Just remember that there is the ability to perform and then there is just straight up performance! They are not the same.

If you can drive those types of cartridges the way they're intended then you are absolutely right. The only caveat being if you're shooting by yourself and you're trying to see your impact. That said, the reality is that most people who bring this argument up don't actually shoot that well.

 

[Bravo 4]

If you can drive those types of cartridges the way they're intended then you are absolutely right. The only caveat being if you're shooting by yourself and you're trying to see your impact. That said, the reality is that most people who bring this argument up don't actually shoot that well.

I concur, and I usually can spot my own impacts. If not I will film it. To me most guys that are against "big magnums" interject their lack of ability into the mix. I'm not saying that's you or pointing fingers at anyone on here, I really could care less what anyone uses. Just don't group everyone into the same category. I do this for a living and have the capability of firing thousands upon thousands of rounds every year with anything from a 5.56, 6.5 Creedmore, 7.62x51, .300 WinMag, to Barrett M107… and those are just the rifles I have at work, not including my personal rifles. We also have ranges that can be measured in miles.

 

[Tac-O]

I concur, and I usually can spot my own impacts. If not I will film it. To me most guys that are against "big magnums" interject their lack of ability into the mix. I'm not saying that's you or pointing fingers at anyone on here, I really could care less what anyone uses. Just don't group everyone into the same category. I do this for a living and have the capability of firing thousands upon thousands of rounds every year with anything from a 5.56, 6.5 Creedmore, 7.62x51, .300 WinMag, to Barrett M107… and those are just the rifles I have at work, not including my personal rifles. We also have ranges that can be measured in miles.

I'm jealous!!

 

[Lapuatom]

Elk season is coming - wonder what we think?
IMO and IME experience, there is a thresh hold for caliber and bullet size when I hunt elk. Many of my friends call me "magnum" because of this philosophy. When it comes to hunting, especially larger game, I run big heavy (195 and larger) bullets at at least 3000 fps mzl vel for elk. I subscribe to no less than 1000 lbs of energy to kill and in the field, things sometimes aren't as perfect as they are on the range or shooting steel - especially at longer ranges when the bullet has a 1 second or longer flight time. Animals move, take steps, turn and have round bones that sometimes deflect smaller bullets upon impact.

I wonder how every one else thinks about this? Yes, I know there have been elk killed with a .243 but is that really what you want to ethically kill an elk with?

SEND IT!

No such thing as overkill!

 

[Bravo 4]

I'm jealous!!

Don't be, it's not as illustrious as it may sound. The military has a way of sucking the fun out of anything. I don't know what it's like to have a "normal" life. By normal I mean a schedule, have holidays and birthdays off, or can plan anything outside of work. I'm jealous of those that get to plan things like vacations with the family, or hunting trips with your buddies. I've devoted most of my life to this and as soon as I walk out the door I will be forgotten, that's my legacy. Nobody in the military should not be replaceable. If I've done anything right it's to make sure my guys can run that schoolhouse without me, as evident by me being laid up in bed the past week and a half with COVID.

Edit: dang, that reads like a pity party!

 

[HARPERC]

Having worked "sight in days", and spent my time on a public range, the idea that the once a year .243 shooter is going to outshoot the once a .338 shooter just doesn't hold up in my observation.

Just because its been repeated over and over doesn't make it so.

There are very few natural born shooters. Marksmanship is a skill set that needs to be developed, regardless of platform or cartridge.

 

[Chase723]

I concur, and I usually can spot my own impacts. If not I will film it. To me most guys that are against "big magnums" interject their lack of ability into the mix. I'm not saying that's you or pointing fingers at anyone on here, I really could care less what anyone uses. Just don't group everyone into the same category. I do this for a living and have the capability of firing thousands upon thousands of rounds every year with anything from a 5.56, 6.5 Creedmore, 7.62x51, .300 WinMag, to Barrett M107… and those are just the rifles I have at work, not including my personal rifles. We also have ranges that can be measured in miles.

I don't discriminate. I shoot a spectrum of cartridges from 5.56 to 460 Steyr, out to 2850. Not quite mile(s) plural but past 1. In no way am I against more energy, it's just that this horse has been beat to death a few times. .338 and .375 with high BC bullets have definite distinct advantages, as you mentioned and know, at distance. It's unequivocal. That said, everything needs context and perspective is important. Most people aren't shooting thousands of rounds per year, especially the people starting these conversations.

 

[Brushcutter]

Elk season is coming - wonder what we think?
IMO and IME experience, there is a thresh hold for caliber and bullet size when I hunt elk. Many of my friends call me "magnum" because of this philosophy. When it comes to hunting, especially larger game, I run big heavy (195 and larger) bullets at at least 3000 fps mzl vel for elk. I subscribe to no less than 1000 lbs of energy to kill and in the field, things sometimes aren't as perfect as they are on the range or shooting steel - especially at longer ranges when the bullet has a 1 second or longer flight time. Animals move, take steps, turn and have round bones that sometimes deflect smaller bullets upon impact.

I wonder how every one else thinks about this? Yes, I know there have been elk killed with a .243 but is that really what you want to ethically kill an elk with?

SEND IT!

 

[Chase723]

I also think many people simply don't have much legitimate perspective about how devastating/"powerful"/destructive/effective firearms can be when shot into flesh. I've seen plenty, and @Bravo 4 I'm sure you have has well.