Is the .308 Win 7.62 X 51 still a Long Range Hunting Cartridge?

[C-130 Dude]

The first 2 comments refer to military use which isn't your question.

First there is the challenge of defining "long range" in hunting as it's not the same for every one and every kind of game and every caliber+chambering.

Modern bullets have much better terminal ballistics than those of 50 years ago.

If the "long range" hunting game is anything deer size. According to all the folks commenting on this forum. 600 yards is "long range" and a 308 will do it.

Flame on...

In all my 55 years of hunting, I've never needed to shoot farther than about 425 yards on any game. All with a .308. Having said this, it can go farther. My personal limit is around 600 yards on it. Some game have "thicker" hide than others requiring a heavier caliber for drt reliability. And there are some game out there that may require much farther shots than I would be comfortable with using my .308. My trusty 300 wm can fit the bill for "longer" shots. Now, if we're talking dangerous game, I turn to my 375HH. My experiences hunting include African game and all over North America. But these are my thoughts. To each, their own.

 

[Paladin300]

it was a m21, a slightly modified m14, not a m1, I believe. The m21 front sight has been milled thinner to make 300 meter head shots, glass bedded, trigger worked, and there's a mod to the cycling system. And it's topped with a Art 1 or 2 scope, that can be removed. The Art 1 scope had a harder cam screw and stayed accurate longer. As far as I can remember. FT. Campbell/101st Abn Asslt still fielded the m21 in the late 80's. And had its own sniper school to use them taught by a Joseph White, and asst Mr Boswell. Both VN 5 grp guys, Mr White had 73 confirmed, coached Olympic team, Presidents 100 as well, and his favorite saying was "Dont worry your Air Assault, you can run 4 miles,,,, but cant shoot worth a ****". Mr. White was the best shot I ever saw. Watched him with a struggling students m21 with iron sights(Art 1 scope removed)at 600 meters shoot a shot, had it marked with a spotter and then put 6 more rds into that spotter with the last round shooting the spindle out and the spotter fell. A sub 6" group at 600 meters, with irons, student couldn't blame the rifle anymore. Unbelievable, but I witnessed it.
I relay this info because I cut my teeth with a 308, and worshipped it. But here's the rub.
Imo the 308 caliber needs a 300 wm case to push it effectively at a minimum, to be effective LR round.
A effective LR round needs a g1 bc of .6 and a case with enough powder to push it at 2900+ fps, by today's standards, imo.
The 308 win is a good intermediate range cartridge. You can shoot out past 800 with a 308 win but wind drift on .5ish g1 bc bullets make variable wind hits hard, and not certain. BC is everything in LR. The 308 win is not a efficient enough round with the modern equipment of today. Will it work yeah, but there's better, imo.
And for hunting one should use a ballistic app and see if a round has the minimum energy desired at whatever max range you want to hunt. Bullet manufacturers recommend (X) amount of speed for bullets to work, usually ~1800 fps minimum or about 1200 #'s. So look at the 308 win numbers, it's an intermediate range round. Imo the 7 rem mag is the smallest effective LR round with the energy to kill effectively as well.
edit- yes theres a few other cartridges in that light mag category like the 280 ai or 270 wsm with just enough energy, but you get my drift.

The rifle you use and bullet matters. I don't know where you got your ballistics data or if maybe you just chose a standard bullet or load but your data for a modern 308 is incorrect. A 168 grain ABLR or Amax can be pushed to 2600+ from a 16" gun and 2900+ from a 27" rifle. The effective range of the 16" is 500+ and the 27" 700+ and it gets there in less than a second. The displacement of the 308 at shorter distances make it in my opinion a better choice than the 6.5 as bullet selection in the 6.5 is not one size fits all. At extended ranges the 178-180 grain bullet give the 308 an advantage as well on larger game. It's disadvantage is its drop and windage as you point out but it is quite effective at 600 yards for just about anything. 600 hundred being my personal max for hunting. The problem for most speculators is they have zero experience and they compare apples to oranges.

 

[nwhunter]

With today's scopes, range finders and bullets, sure, why wouldn't the 308 be a long-range cartridge.
I am more a 30-06 fan and have only ever killed one animal with a 308, but it was a mule deer at probably 400-500 yards.
And that was in a lever action 99 savage.
We were hunting in Idaho, any shot I ever made there in over 10 years of hunting was over 300 yards.
Our group were all using lever actin rifles that year or were supposed to.
My buddy refused to take a lever action and was hunting with his favorite 270. After I shot my deer, I heard extensive shooting on the next ridge over and 30 minutes later my buddy came sliding down the hill to borrow my lever action savage. he had wounded a deer, ran out of ammo and needed to catch up with it. He did find and finish it with my 308 so it ended well in the end.
Oh, and in the end of our trip the biggest buck that year was killed with a 30-30 in a 99 savage, loaded with sierra game king 150 grain bullets.
This was before the era of laser rangefinders, we all zeroed our rifles at 300 yards, shot them at 300,400,500 and 600, new our drops and made it work.
So, to me a 308 is still a long-range hunting cartridge.

 

[R. Cram]

In the day when we shot the 600 yd phase of Highpower the best 2 shooters in the area shot 308's instead of switching to the 6.5x308 that was popular [260] so I shot the 260 and still so and when we shot those matches there was 3 relays so one relay would shoot and another would pull targets and the other would score for the shooter. when scoring I would watch wind conditions and watch the shooters hand on his sights to see what he was doing and also you could keep track of switches when you shooter got caught in one. we were shooting iron sights so you could see the shooters hand on his sight to see how much wind he put on the rifle and all the match rifles had 1/4 min per detent clicks so it was easy to count how many clicks the shooters put on their rifles on differing wind conditions. I was all proud of my 260 and would see, and hope that it would be better in the wind than a 308 but in reality there was not much difference between the 308 and the 260 for wind effect at 600. A better way of seeing the difference was when a switch would happen, when shooting irons you would watch in your spotting scope before the shot to see mirage or the flags or whatever you could gauge the wind with then when you made your decision you would get back on the rifle, adjust your sights and shoot and some times the wind especially if it was fishtailing would head the other way so ypou could have a min left on the rifle and the switch could mean you needed a min right so that made you off by 2 min which was hard on a score so as a scorer we could see the switch and know bad things were going to happen and I would say there wasn't that much difference between a 260 and a 308 for amount off in a switch. the fellows shooting AR15 service rifle with 20 inch barrels would have about twice the ammount of wind effect as we did with match rifles. also I think the majority of hunters and probably people reading forums don't have much or any time actually shooting at longer ranges to see what mirage looks like and the effects when you pull the trigger and in my opinion a person won't learn to read the wind in just a few matches, I would say 20 or so matches most people would get a good idea which is 2000 rnds or so, so it would be a great help for people to learn with a 308 and still have 2000 rnds left in a barrel after starting down the path of learning the wind verses buying a hot cartridge and only getting 1000 rnds out of a barrel. another thing people don't understand is that often when the barrels go out we noticed it ,a lot, at the 600 800 900 or 1000yd line where they could throw some wild flyers however these same barrels often would shoot just fine at 2 or 300 yds. I understand that back East there are not as many ranges where one can shoot at longer ranges so it will be difficult or impossible for those shooters to learn to shoot in the wind which is the biggest problem at long range

 

[436]

The .308 WIn/7.62x51 mm NATO might not be the biggest dog in the yard, but... it can still bite like h-ll! I personally love this old cartridge and have all my life. There's not a lot to say it's pretty much been said in the posts already. I did find this; someone might be interested in it.

The 16 Sniper Rifles Used by the US Military

Used by the Army, Navy, and Marine Corps, snipers fulfill a specialized role in military operations. Their primary function is to engage high-value targets across significant distances, and from concealed positions. Snipers also work to gather intelligence and track enemy movements. Positioned...

247wallst.com

In this one, it looks like the NATO 7.62x51 mm is still in the lineup.

New Marine Sniper Rifle Reaches Full Operational Capability Ahead of Schedule

The Marine Corps' Mk22 Advanced Sniper Rifle will eventually replace the M40A6 and Mk13 Mod 7 in the service's arsenal.

www.military.com

Cheers

 

[Greatgrandad]

From the video, it looks like it was hit in the neck - and at the end, clearly shows it was hit in the neck. Easy to play armchair QB, but the pine tree below the elk is bending pretty hard in the wind - 2 minutes? IMO, bad wind call and lucky it hit the neck.

I love my .308, but wind drift past 500 limits my shots.

Well, I've have used the 308 for decades, and some of those were in Nat'l Match in 600 yard prone and 800-1,000 yard Palma and some other. Wind reading is always part of LR shooting, and if one is not confident shooting a 308 past 500 yards because of wind reading, then I would suggest more study and practice in that field.

One of my 308 Palma and hunting loads will only drift 4.5" at 600 yards with a 10mph 90 degree crosswind. It would be a rarity if I blow a wind call by 10 mph and at 90 degrees.

 

[Nomad8961]

Truth: 99% of tactical and hunting engagements happen inside 600 yards, most inside 200. If I could only own one gun, it would be a 308. It is the cartridge I recommend the most for newbies to learn on, most find they never need more. I have a friend who has guided for 30 years in Alaska, mainly bears. If you ask him what to bring he will tell you a 308 or 30-06. Most guides are not going to let you shoot beyond 400 yards. There is nothing worst than having to go in the bush after a wounded bear. The guides would rather have you shooting something you can handle than an Uber magnum. They also understand that there is no substitute for displacement and the 30 cal is their preferred minimum. There have been several surveys done around the would as to which calibers and cartridges are being used by most hunters. Four rise to the top every time and have killed more game than all others combined, 308, 30-06, 300 WM & 375 H&H. Additionally, the 308 is still the primary DMR for the US military and is the primary sniper rifle for all nato countries and police forces around the world. It is also still winning a lot of competitions around the world. The Creedmoor is a good round as are the PRCs but personally I think the 6.5x284 Norma is better than both but that is a debate for another day. The 308 is here to stay and probably will be for several more decades. Here are few of mine, some of my other rifles and a 600 yard group, 5 shot 100 yard group and 230 yard kill for you. Get ur done!View attachment 642129View attachment 642133View attachment 642134View attachment 642130View attachment 642135View attachment 642131View attachment 642132View attachment 642137

I do love my 6.5x284!!!

 

[JiggyIi]

This is exactly the way the cartridge should be evaluated.

The 7.62x51 cartridge is a direct descendent of the 30-06 with a single goal in mind. That goal was to duplicate the 30-06 ballistics out to ~500 yds in a lighter, shorter cartridge more suitable for use in semi-automatic weapons. It filled that roll well. Was it as good at longer ranges as the 30-06? That answer is no. Is the 300WM as good of a long range cartridge as the 338 Lapua? Nope. It all boils down to picking the right cartridge for job.

I live in the South and the comment @FEENIX makes is how we looked at hunting when I was a kid. Everyone liked to say the 30-06 was the best deer rifle to have but here it was an absolute waste. The shotgun slug was very popular and lever action rifles were the most frequently used rifles in my opinion.

As for Carlos he was smart. You have to remember that his longest kill wasn't with a 30-06. He made that ~2500yd shot with a Ma-Duece (50 BMG)! Right tool for the right job!

& the guy was on a bicycle!

 

[Paladin300]

I do love my 6.5x284!!!

In my not so humble opinion it is just about the perfect cartridge and decades ahead of its time. As a long range and competitive cartridge it is my favorite to load and shoot. I have been a fan for almost 30 years. IMO if there had been good factory support there never would have been a need for a creed or PRC!

 

[JiggyIi]

Truth: 99% of tactical and hunting engagements happen inside 600 yards, most inside 200. If I could only own one gun, it would be a 308. It is the cartridge I recommend the most for newbies to learn on, most find they never need more. I have a friend who has guided for 30 years in Alaska, mainly bears. If you ask him what to bring he will tell you a 308 or 30-06. Most guides are not going to let you shoot beyond 400 yards. There is nothing worst than having to go in the bush after a wounded bear. The guides would rather have you shooting something you can handle than an Uber magnum. They also understand that there is no substitute for displacement and the 30 cal is their preferred minimum. There have been several surveys done around the would as to which calibers and cartridges are being used by most hunters. Four rise to the top every time and have killed more game than all others combined, 308, 30-06, 300 WM & 375 H&H. Additionally, the 308 is still the primary DMR for the US military and is the primary sniper rifle for all nato countries and police forces around the world. It is also still winning a lot of competitions around the world. The Creedmoor is a good round as are the PRCs but personally I think the 6.5x284 Norma is better than both but that is a debate for another day. The 308 is here to stay and probably will be for several more decades. Here are few of mine, some of my other rifles and a 600 yard group, 5 shot 100 yard group and 230 yard kill for you. Get ur done!View attachment 642129View attachment 642133View attachment 642134View attachment 642130View attachment 642135View attachment 642131View attachment 642132View attachment 642137

Very Nice. ! I like the Lever standing in the door !

 

[bigngreen]

It's the bullet that does the killing, put a heavy high BC bullet that opens low and you can stretch it out. A 215 Berger is a wrecking ball on an elk well beyond 600 yards!!

 

[Hondo64d]

Well, I've have used the 308 for decades, and some of those were in Nat'l Match in 600 yard prone and 800-1,000 yard Palma and some other. Wind reading is always part of LR shooting, and if one is not confident shooting a 308 past 500 yards because of wind reading, then I would suggest more study and practice in that field.

One of my 308 Palma and hunting loads will only drift 4.5" at 600 yards with a 10mph 90 degree crosswind. It would be a rarity if I blow a wind call by 10 mph and at 90 degrees.

What load is only drifting 4.5" at 600 yards with a 10mph full value wind?

John

 

[C-130 Dude]

Truth: 99% of tactical and hunting engagements happen inside 600 yards, most inside 200. If I could only own one gun, it would be a 308. It is the cartridge I recommend the most for newbies to learn on, most find they never need more. I have a friend who has guided for 30 years in Alaska, mainly bears. If you ask him what to bring he will tell you a 308 or 30-06. Most guides are not going to let you shoot beyond 400 yards. There is nothing worst than having to go in the bush after a wounded bear. The guides would rather have you shooting something you can handle than an Uber magnum. They also understand that there is no substitute for displacement and the 30 cal is their preferred minimum. There have been several surveys done around the would as to which calibers and cartridges are being used by most hunters. Four rise to the top every time and have killed more game than all others combined, 308, 30-06, 300 WM & 375 H&H. Additionally, the 308 is still the primary DMR for the US military and is the primary sniper rifle for all nato countries and police forces around the world. It is also still winning a lot of competitions around the world. The Creedmoor is a good round as are the PRCs but personally I think the 6.5x284 Norma is better than both but that is a debate for another day. The 308 is here to stay and probably will be for several more decades. Here are few of mine, some of my other rifles and a 600 yard group, 5 shot 100 yard group and 230 yard kill for you. Get ur done!View attachment 642129View attachment 642133View attachment 642134View attachment 642130View attachment 642135View attachment 642131View attachment 642132View attachment 642137

Very nice collection. Are they all .308?

 

[436]

Truth: 99% of tactical and hunting engagements happen inside 600 yards, most inside 200. If I could only own one gun, it would be a 308. It is the cartridge I recommend the most for newbies to learn on, most find they never need more. I have a friend who has guided for 30 years in Alaska, mainly bears. If you ask him what to bring he will tell you a 308 or 30-06. Most guides are not going to let you shoot beyond 400 yards. There is nothing worst than having to go in the bush after a wounded bear. The guides would rather have you shooting something you can handle than an Uber magnum. They also understand that there is no substitute for displacement and the 30 cal is their preferred minimum. There have been several surveys done around the would as to which calibers and cartridges are being used by most hunters. Four rise to the top every time and have killed more game than all others combined, 308, 30-06, 300 WM & 375 H&H. Additionally, the 308 is still the primary DMR for the US military and is the primary sniper rifle for all nato countries and police forces around the world. It is also still winning a lot of competitions around the world. The Creedmoor is a good round as are the PRCs but personally I think the 6.5x284 Norma is better than both but that is a debate for another day. The 308 is here to stay and probably will be for several more decades. Here are few of mine, some of my other rifles and a 600 yard group, 5 shot 100 yard group and 230 yard kill for you. Get ur done!View attachment 642129View attachment 642133View attachment 642134View attachment 642130View attachment 642135View attachment 642131View attachment 642132View attachment 642137

Glad to see you have a lever rifle in the herd. Cheers