Improving the 308 Win performance

[USAFRet]

Pat, post #1024 should be a good starting point for your cross. LVR or 2000MR would do the trick.
Thanks Nez.

 

[C-130 Dude]

Lots about this post is making controversial claims and thoughts. In a true apples for apples comparison the 308 will never outperform a 30-06. True a light load 30-06 may be slower than a crazy hot load for a 308 but apples for apples it isn't going to happen.

Same for the 900 yds on elk. Possible, maybe. Appropriate, never.

Use the 308 the way it was intended. Moderate weight pill inside 400 yards absolute max distance. If you want to shoot further and faster just sell it and buy a hotter cartridge. I have loaded the 215 and 230 bergers in a 308. They shot reasonably well at like 2200 FPS. But still didn't increase the range at which the bullet was going over 1800 FPS at impact. Just provided more mass for penetration and appropriately moderate expansion at 0-300 yds.

I've never used it beyond 600. Never had to shoot at game beyond 425. There's better longer range carts. Choose wisely.

 

[nralifer]

I'm using Varget, Lapua brass, CCI 200, and the 150 BDII in a factory 16" Cross. Basically as much powder as I could stuff in the case and still fit the SIG mag. Very happy with the load out to ~700 on targets and ~500 on one buck.

My favorite load is 150 gr 308BD2 from Badlands Precision, 49 gr Leverevolution, to a COAL = 2.950". It shoots 2950 fps from a 20" barrel to 1/2 MOA. Harvested criters out to 500 yds all single shot DRT.

 

[44-40]

My favorite load is 150 gr 308BD2 from Badlands Precision, 49 gr Leverevolution, to a COAL = 2.950". It shoots 2950 fps from a 20" barrel to 1/2 MOA. Harvested criters out to 500 yds all single shot DRT.

I have run a bunch of tests with Leverevolution with a 22" barrel 308 9 twist 49.5 to 51.1 and found that after 50.8 the velocity begins to go down so that 50.4 gr and 51.1 gr have the same velocity. Accuracy was bad across the board in my rifle the 49.5 gr =2964 fps and top velocity was 50.5 to 50.8 gr. At 3050ish fps, but with large spreads in velocity, sometimes 33 fps with the same powder charge in just two shots... the powder gets erratic.
2000MR powder was much better with accuracy 3100 fps, switch to hybrid cases ran a test to 3142 fps with 150 gr gold dot. So I have given up on Leverevolution in the 308 for my barrels there are better options, with more speed, lots better S/D, and better accuracy.

 

[44-40]

Here's your 600 yd elk rifle ..
LOL ...18" AR 10 200 gr SMK .715 BC 2673 fps makes the velocity and energy requirements, at 600 yds. Put it in a bolt gun with a longer barrel will go much faster, and farther.

 

[44-40]

Lots about this post is making controversial claims and thoughts. In a true apples for apples comparison the 308 will never outperform a 30-06. True a light load 30-06 may be slower than a crazy hot load for a 308 but apples for apples it isn't going to happen.

Same for the 900 yds on elk. Possible, maybe. Appropriate, never.

Use the 308 the way it was intended. Moderate weight pill inside 400 yards absolute max distance. If you want to shoot further and faster just sell it and buy a hotter cartridge. I have loaded the 215 and 230 bergers in a 308. They shot reasonably well at like 2200 FPS. But still didn't increase the range at which the bullet was going over 1800 FPS at impact. Just provided more mass for penetration and appropriately moderate expansion at 0-300 yds.

Basically I agree, more capacity equals more performance..
But times have changed and that isn't always true, look at the new 277 Fury with the hybrid cases equals the 270 magnums with a 308 case.
So too can 308 can out preform the 30-06 if all the latest items are employed.
My 230 are running 2550 fps in 22" barrel, 225 are 2574 fps. 200 SMK 2740 fps. 250 Aip a 2319 from the 22", with LC and Lapua brass.
18" AR 10 225 are 2477 fps 200 gr SMK 2673 fps.with LC and Lapua brass.
Go to the more specialized SS hybrid case and a longer barrel (hybrid 308 (277 Fury) SS cases not available in 30-06....yet.) and things change again.
Where utilized the 308 case can push 168 gr to 3255 fps and the 200 SMK 2951 fps...
New powders, bullets, specially cases.. for now.
..can turn the 308 case to near magnum performance. Also works on the 6.5 Creedmoor.
But when it comes to huntin, I just shoot em inside 100yds with the 338 Win Mag or modified 350 Rem mag ...and never even concern myself with anything long, I need off hand and fast, with a very low power light scope. But my hobbies are target LR or plinking and machining & modifing for performance. Just completed a 30 RAR and working on a 6.5 lb 308...close range engagement items, except in emergency.

 

[nralifer]

I have run a bunch of tests with Leverevolution with a 22" barrel 308 9 twist 49.5 to 51.1 and found that after 50.8 the velocity begins to go down so that 50.4 gr and 51.1 gr have the same velocity. Accuracy was bad across the board in my rifle the 49.5 gr =2964 fps and top velocity was 50.5 to 50.8 gr. At 3050ish fps, but with large spreads in velocity, sometimes 33 fps with the same powder charge in just two shots... the powder gets erratic.
2000MR powder was much better with accuracy 3100 fps, switch to hybrid cases ran a test to 3142 fps with 150 gr gold dot. So I have given up on Leverevolution in the 308 for my barrels there are better options, with more speed, lots better S/D, and better accuracy.

When you say "velocity was bad across the board" what do you mean? Bullet and jump?

 

[44-40]

Have to correct this post. I don't know what I was thinking but 3200 fps from the 205 is too optimistic. More realistic is 2700 fps from the 195 gr BD2. I apologize for misleading anyone.

Yep, past optimistic, my friend ...but I get 2740 fps with 200 gr SMK 715 BC, Lapua LR brass, 2000MR and a 9 twist Bartlein barrel 22" 7.5 lb hunting rifle ....with excellent accuracy.
Leverevolution has worked in the 6mm ARC very well, the 358 Win OK. In the 30 RAR is was way slow, 250 fps off reloading manual speed. And I do not recommend it for the 308, and why most loading manuals do not have it listed, velocity is not consistent enough to be considered for LR in my tests and accuracy was really lacking with the bullets I tried. In one test the starting charge velocity was the same as the max charge velocity. Experienced the same with LilGun in other calibers, like the 300 Blackout.

 

[44-40]

When you say "velocity was bad across the board" what do you mean? Bullet and jump?

Keep shooting the same weight powder charge for say 3 or 4 shots, move up charge shoot another 3 shots , move up the charge shoot another 3 shots ...etc. velocities bounce around and start trending down at about 50.8 gr and 51.1 gr was the same velocity as the starting charge. 50.4 gr yielded 3003, 3013, 3036 fps or 33 fps in just 3 shots 150 gr gold dot...and 51.1 gr was 3015 fps. It's not a long range powder, and I believe that's why it's not listed by Hodgdon for use in the 308 it has limited application, and was designed for lever guns. I tested it rather thoroughly for 150 & 155 gr bullets. And 2000 MR was faster, more accurate, and consistent, not perfect, but easily usable.

 

[3chester]

Keep shooting the same weight powder charge for say 3 or 4 shots, move up charge shoot another 3 shots , move up the charge shoot another 3 shots ...etc. velocities bounce around and start trending down at about 50.8 gr and 51.1 gr was the same velocity as the starting charge. 50.4 gr yielded 3003, 3013, 3036 fps or 33 fps in just 3 shots 150 gr gold dot...and 51.1 gr was 3015 fps. It's not a long range powder, and I believe that's why it's not listed by Hodgdon for use in the 308 it has limited application, and was designed for lever guns. I tested it rather thoroughly for 150 & 155 gr bullets. And 2000 MR was faster, more accurate, and consistent, not perfect, but easily usable.

Sierra #2610 , 215gr, SBT in 338 Federal cartridge makes way more sense for an Elk or Bear rig. Not sure why a guy would waste all that time on a 308 Winchester when hunting an Elk is the goal.Nearly 3,300 ftlb energy on tap with a 485 B.C., it's just plain and simple.

 

[xsn10s]

Sierra #2610 , 215gr, SBT in 338 Federal cartridge makes way more sense for an Elk or Bear rig. Not sure why a guy would waste all that time on a 308 Winchester when hunting an Elk is the goal.Nearly 3,300 ftlb energy on tap with a 485 B.C., it's just plain and simple.

When I compare a 215 SBT @ 2560 fps vs a BD2 150 @ 2900 fps I get 440 yards as the max distance for reliable expansion. Or at 440 yards the .338 Federal 215 gr SBT is at 1808 fps with 1560 ft/ lbs and 1.1 mils of drift for a 10 mph wind drift. The 308 win 150 BD2 is at 460 yard with a velocity of 2131 fps and 1513 ft/ lbs energy and 0.9 mils of wind drift. The .338 Federal has 3.4 mils drop @ 440 yards and the 308 Win has 2.4 mils drop also at 440 yards. With a flatter trajectory and less wind drift I'd chose the 308 Win in that comparison. Basically the same energy at 440 yards. I used jbm @ 2200 ft elevation and 65 degrees when running the comparison.

 

[44-40]

Sierra #2610 , 215gr, SBT in 338 Federal cartridge makes way more sense for an Elk or Bear rig. Not sure why a guy would waste all that time on a 308 Winchester when hunting an Elk is the goal.Nearly 3,300 ftlb energy on tap with a 485 B.C., it's just plain and simple.

That ain't nothing to brag about...and .485 is considered low B.C. and will definitely not make a LR elk cartridge, but a good short to normal range elk cartridge, and not meet the actual criteria at 600 yds. The 338 Lapua would be considered a LR elk cartridge.
A 22" 308 will meet the criteria with certain bullets, and some 150 gr bullets have as good a BC as your 215 and can be pushed at 3100 fps. Or 200 Sierra MK 2740 fps, 3333 ft/bs at the muzzle with .715 BC it meets the velocity requirements over 2000 fps and 1850 ft/lbs at 600 yds, with a required 9 twist barrel its accurate. Wouldn't use it for LR elk, cause I don't shoot game at long range. Its for squirrel snipering, and such.
I have many 308s from 16" to 30" and hybrid cases, short actions, ARs, and long action. The 308 case has hit over 3950 ft/lb of muzzle energy with the extreme examples...like 168 gr at 3256 fps, make a 700 yd criteria elk rifle.
But its for LR squirrels, and such.

 

[xsn10s]

My 308 Win load for the 168 ELDM is at 2780 fps. I could push it more but that load is safe for the 100 degree temps I get out here. It nets me 1515 ft/lbs at 460 yards, 2016 fps. Some reports say it'll still expand down to 1600 fps, I have no experience with that. I'd like to try in on coyotes and distance. That would be 740 yards in my area.

 

[Bravo 4]

Sierra #2610 , 215gr, SBT in 338 Federal cartridge makes way more sense for an Elk or Bear rig. Not sure why a guy would waste all that time on a 308 Winchester when hunting an Elk is the goal.Nearly 3,300 ftlb energy on tap with a 485 B.C., it's just plain and simple.

There are trade offs for everything you do. In this case you are trading longer range performance (.308 with the BD2 @ well over 2900 fps) for a larger heavier bullet with anemic LR performance. Normally I'm a bigger is better kind of guy when it comes to bigger game, but with that little .338 and ballistic (external) turd of a bullet you mentioned I would feel handicapped by limiting my range. A bigger heavier bullet needs some a@$ behind it for it to be "better" at long range, and a better design. After all I have hunted elk with a .338 RUM, .338 Edge, 33XC, .375 Snipetac, and .408 Cheytac.
Besides, this thread is about "improving the .308 Win performance" and nowhere is necking it up to .338 mentioned.
Sorry, not in this scenario.