im going to start another controversial thread

[varmintH8R]

My first preference for most applications is a standard cup and core bullet. I generally agree with you about the circumstances that might favor a Barnes type bullet. I haven't shot anything but paper with a monometal bullet yet. I tend to see monometal bullets as having specialized applications.

When it comes to premium bullets, if I feel I need something over and above a standard cup and core bullet, my first preference is to reach for Nosler Partitions. I will be shooting them in my .264 Win Mag this season with reduced loads.

A few years ago, a friend of mine took a buck at relatively short range with his .308 loaded with Hornady Light Magnum 150g SST factory ammo. He took the standard meat saver shot. He later told me that it was the most violent and decisive kill he had ever experienced. The deer had collapsed forcefully enough that it broke its lower jaw when it fell. He said he would never use that ammo again because it destroyed a lot of meat on entry and exit.

Here again, I don't think the results would have been markedly different with a controlled expansion bullet. I believe the damage done was a direct result of high impact velocity. That is one of the reasons I tend to favor heavy bullets. The lower muzzle velocity of a heavy bullet tends to be less destructive at close range but maintains its effectiveness at longer range.

I don't think the comments made in the original post are all that controversial. There seems to be a fair bit of overlap in people's thinking on this subject. While my own experiences have shaped my thinking on bullet construction and terminal performance, I don't feel my experiences represent anywhere near a broad enough cross section to definitively tell someone else that their ideas on the subject are right or wrong. About the best I can do is state that I agree or disagree and why.

Wow. That is a well-thought out and well reasoned response. I like your thoughts on velocity, and really hadn't considered it from that angle. Very interesting and another reason these posts (and this site in general) is valuable.

 

[MudRunner2005]

you guys think your disagreeing with me but your not. SHot placent is paramount. thats a given whether it be for quick kills or lack of meat damage. Bullet performance is second and velocity is a major factor. What works for a a bullet, load and caliber for a quick kill at 200 yards may fail miserably at 500. My point in this post was mostly that some guys think barnes bullets are the greatest thing since smokeless powder. My point is they may be great but its a very narrow margin of conditions that there great in. LIke shooting game larger then you should be looking at with a smaller caliber, Holding together at 50 yards out of a 7stw, or having enough penetration to take what would normal be a @@@@ shot. Many here do believe that a cup and core bullet is more sutible to deer hunting covering the most possible senerios best. A cup and core bullet will still give enough penetration to kill at close range and enough expansion to kill at longer ranges without having to hit bone. Like most said meat loss isnt a much of a consideration for chosing a bullet because bullet placement is what determines that. Seems like we agree on more then you think.

Inside of 100 yards with a 7mm STW with a 160gr bullet is massive meat damage if you shoot them in hte shoulder. It makes one hell of a mess....Trust me, I know this from experience. Which is why I only pull that "horse" out of the stable for LR hunting for deer. I have other calibers better suited for closer range kills that won't destroy anywhere near as much meat. For example, .257 Wby & .25-06 AI. I try not to take any shot inside of 100 with any rifle, but that's just my personal preference.

 

[lloydsmale]

I havent shared the same experience with my stw. Ive shot many deer with the 150 bt and unless you have a bad agle or are shooting shoulder shots it does no more damage to a meat then an 270 or 06 does. Might put a bigger hole in the ribs or blood shot the ribs a bit more but who cares. Not much meat on the ribs anyway. One more thing ill add. My dislike for barnes bulelts and other very well constructed bullets is more in the small calibers. Ive had good luck with barnes bullets in the .30mags and even in the 7mags. they seem to have enough more mass and do a good job on deer at mag velocitys and have given me quick kills out to 400 yards. I wouldnt push a barns bullet any farther then that in any caliber or cartridge though. Ive shot 4 deer in the last two nights using them. Two each with 165s tsx out of my 300 ultra and 150 tsx out of my 300 H&H. Longest shot was 350 and none of those 4 deer took more then one leap before piling up. Did tear one up a bit with the H&H. Shot it facing me at a slight angle at 200 yards and the bullet went stem to stern taking out one shoulder and a good portion of one hind quarter. But the deer barely twitched.

 

[MudRunner2005]

I've had good experiences with the Barnes 160 TSX's in 7RM. Used them for years and years with perfect results.

The 160 out of my STW that caused severe meat damage was a 160 Sierra Gameking. I was shocked how much damage it did and how badly it bruised and mangled the shoulders up.

After that I never made another shoulder shot ever again...That was almost 12 years ago. And I would also be wiling to give the STW at close range another shot if I were to make a rib shot in the vitals, and that it would do minimal damage.

We live, we learn... I'll pop a few floppy ear'd nanny-goats (does) with the STW this year just to see how clean she'll make a vitals kill with the Berger VLD's in a rib shot.

 

[7 loader]

AWESOME! The shoulder meat and front leg sucks. I do still use it when I can but only for hamburger. My wife and I process our own wild game. Most of that meat we give to our German Shepperd and Pit bull.

 

[branwill25]

Lloyd,

First off, let me say that I am envious that you kill so many deer. I love hunting and have only loaded my own ammo for the last 4.5 years. In that time I have honestly killed more critters with a bow than I have with a rifle.

I have been fortunate enough to see my daughter kill a deer every year for the last three years. She shoots a 243 loaded with a 85 grain TSX over 45 grains of RL19. I am proud to say I loaded those and in my very limited experience the barnes bullets have been phenomenal. All three shots have been very decisive with all three deer falling to the ground instantly on impact.

Last year I squoze off a kill shot on a 3 by 3 mule deer buck at 750 yards with my custom 260 shooting a berger 140 VLD bullet. He took a couple steps and went down with very little meat damage other than the ribs on the offside were very blood shot.

Everybody has their preferences on bullets for whatever reason and will do what they do regardless of what anyone else thinks because it works for them. I personally love reading all the posts on a subject like this because it is entertaining and good information because like I said, I love to hunt and harvest animals, but being the worlds worst hunter I have only harvested 8 deer, one elk, and one antelope in my life.

This year should change all that because my daughter and I drew on antelope in a very good unit here in Idaho. I can't wait for the season to start next Wednesday. Anyway, sorry to be so long winded but I had a lot to say

Take care and keep piling them up. I will live vicariously through your work. Take care.

Brandon

 

[lloydsmale]

shot two deer last night with a bullet id say would fit some of your ideas of a destructive bullet. Gun was a 300wsm and the bullet a 150 hornady sst. First deer was at 125 and it blew a hole through it that i could put my fist through. Funny thing is the hole was that big on both sides so im guess it started blowing up on the enterance but it did make it to the far side and blew a hole there too. Second deer was at 475 and dropped at the shot. The hole inside of the deer was mush. heart lungs guts everything! Left an exit hole about the size of a baseball. This bullet seems even thinner skinned then a sierra or balllistic tip. Might have to find a differnt load for that gun next year. I didnt loose any meat other then ribs but even a heart shot or a right behind the shoulder shot with this bullet would probably destroy shoulders.

 

[FAL Shot]

The best bullet? None of the above. The Nosler Partition is still the bullet that all hunting bullets are compared against. No matter how much or little you spent, nothing is all-around better. Want to do the same thing with a standard bullet? Fine. Load your semi-auto magazine with a full metal jacket bullet and then a Ballistic Tip or SST. Do this staggered loading until the magazine is full. Now, on every animal you shoot, do a quick double tap. The BT or SST will simulate the nose of the Nosler Partition as it quickly expands and transfers shock and destroys tissue. The FMJ bullet will punch through to leave a blood trail for tracking if necessary and will simulate the rear of the Nosler Partition bullet.....

Of course, you COULD just load a Nosler Partition and save yourself the trouble of aiming and absorbing recoil twice and probably saving money in the process. I believe that Jack O'Connor knew something about this.....

I did a search to determine what African guides considered the best bullet to use on African game, and the Nosler Partition was mentioned the most and the Swift A-Frame came in second, which is a VERY similar bullet to the Partition. The Barnes TSX was particularly mentioned as having a high failure rate.

If I'm in an area where large predator game is known to exist, and I'm armed with something like a .223 Rem, then a 60-grain Nosler Partition is the first bullet in the chamber. If you need a meat or pelt saving bullet, then you rack it in the chamber. You want the Partition first in line in case you are unexpectedly jumped by something.

The Partition has been around so long that some fools think it is somehow obsolete and something else is all-around better. What a joke.

 

[HARPERC]

The thread i did on the long range ability of my 240wby raised some hackles. This one will probably raise more.

For me you've raised neither hackles or controversy. First you're disappointed in in your 240 Weatherby because the deer traveled a bit. Next you're disappointed at the meat destruction of the bigger magnums and premium bullets. You point out you know all the reasons why this happens, but choose to skip over moderate cartridges and bullets that would give you more moderate results? That's not controversy, it's confusion. Yes, if you really did not know it, 270's and 30-06's with cup and core bullets will kill whitetail does. Personally, it doesn't matter what folks shoot their deer with, but you set up an experiment that was predictable, to "raise hackles and cause controversy", and then try to sound like you're intrinsically motivated.

 

[lloydsmale]

got to agree. Its hard to argue against a partition.

The best bullet? None of the above. The Nosler Partition is still the bullet that all hunting bullets are compared against. No matter how much or little you spent, nothing is all-around better. Want to do the same thing with a standard bullet? Fine. Load your semi-auto magazine with a full metal jacket bullet and then a Ballistic Tip or SST. Do this staggered loading until the magazine is full. Now, on every animal you shoot, do a quick double tap. The BT or SST will simulate the nose of the Nosler Partition as it quickly expands and transfers shock and destroys tissue. The FMJ bullet will punch through to leave a blood trail for tracking if necessary and will simulate the rear of the Nosler Partition bullet.....

Of course, you COULD just load a Nosler Partition and save yourself the trouble of aiming and absorbing recoil twice and probably saving money in the process. I believe that Jack O'Connor knew something about this.....

I did a search to determine what African guides considered the best bullet to use on African game, and the Nosler Partition was mentioned the most and the Swift A-Frame came in second, which is a VERY similar bullet to the Partition. The Barnes TSX was particularly mentioned as having a high failure rate.

If I'm in an area where large predator game is known to exist, and I'm armed with something like a .223 Rem, then a 60-grain Nosler Partition is the first bullet in the chamber. If you need a meat or pelt saving bullet, then you rack it in the chamber. You want the Partition first in line in case you are unexpectedly jumped by something.

The Partition has been around so long that some fools think it is somehow obsolete and something else is all-around better. What a joke.

 

[lloydsmale]

I guess if a post is confusing its this one. Heck i dont even know what intrinsically means!! Im not an english teacher im a hunter and shooter. My questioning the 240 comes from all the internet experts that claim it strikes deer like a lightning bolt. Point it in the general direction and it kills cuts and wraps and even cooks it. I found it not to be true. I found it was not in the same league as the 257wby, 264 mag ect. that is the controversy i was addressing. You think i dont know an 06 will kill a deer? In fact i got little responses back that actually addressed personal experiences with the 240. Mostly guys that never shot one that think they magicaly know what bullet is needed in one and post from guys that answer every question about what gun or load to use by saying you need to use barnes bullets. Most of them who have shot maybe a half a dozen deer with them if that. Or posts like yours that add no educational benifit. Just criticiizim. Did i know the answer before the post or even before i tried the 240. Probably. But after reading for years that the 240 does slam down deer better then something like an o6 i figured id give it a run myself and all i did was tell the guys here that i found it isnt true and that shooting a bonded bullet or a tsx isnt going to change it. Its a good gun for what it is. Its not the hammer of thor. Its not a rifle id ever consider taking out after an elk. I know its been done but theres much better rifles in the safe for that. I appologize if sharing my REAL WORLD experiences bothers you. But it is what it is.

For me you've raised neither hackles or controversy. First you're disappointed in in your 240 Weatherby because the deer traveled a bit. Next you're disappointed at the meat destruction of the bigger magnums and premium bullets. You point out you know all the reasons why this happens, but choose to skip over moderate cartridges and bullets that would give you more moderate results? That's not controversy, it's confusion. Yes, if you really did not know it, 270's and 30-06's with cup and core bullets will kill whitetail does. Personally, it doesn't matter what folks shoot their deer with, but you set up an experiment that was predictable, to "raise hackles and cause controversy", and then try to sound like you're intrinsically motivated.

 

[bigngreen]

There are three components that are critical to balance, chambering choice, bullet selection and shot placement, if you get them out of balance for the results you desire you'll not be happy.
There is zero magic in a chambering, it's just a case that holds powder that puts a bullet into motion. Picking a bullet that will give you your desired results based on impact velocity at the expected ranges and expected shot placement is far more critical and once chosen stick with that plan.

The Partition is a great bullet at normal ranges, at long range it's a TURD, as a wild game processor I've dug more Partitions out of game that you could reload and fire it's not even funny!!!

 

[lloydsmale]

How are they not performing. granted they may not blow the nose off but if they held together mushroomed there doing everything youd expect out of a bullet. Expansion at velocitys that are probably borderline slow. If to slow to expand id expect it pensil through like a solid and in that case you sure wouldnt be recovering bullets all the time. What i think your seeing isnt that the partition is a poor long range bullet its that the guys using them are shooting them in calibers like the 243, 308, 270, 06 ect that arent the best with any bullet at killing deer past 400 yards. Ive shot a pile of deer with partitions in most every chambering and cant remember one incidence that i lost a deer because of it and id have to say if your butchering those deer the bullets must have worked. What do you consider good long range performance. personly id rather have something like a bt or sierra way out there but as a compromise bullet the partition is still the premium bullet there all measured by. It holds together up close and expands in my experience much better way out there then a tsx does. I may not be a profesional meat processor but for the last 12 years ive butchered between 50 and a 100 whitetail and LOTS of them shot with partitions. So i think if there was some glaring deficientcy in them i would have seen it. With barnes bullets you get two sides. One that love them and one that hates them. I fall in the middle of that as ive seen them work and seem them fail miserably but seldom do you ever here of guys hating partitions. They JUST WORK.

There are three components that are critical to balance, chambering choice, bullet selection and shot placement, if you get them out of balance for the results you desire you'll not be happy.
There is zero magic in a chambering, it's just a case that holds powder that puts a bullet into motion. Picking a bullet that will give you your desired results based on impact velocity at the expected ranges and expected shot placement is far more critical and once chosen stick with that plan.

The Partition is a great bullet at normal ranges, at long range it's a TURD, as a wild game processor I've dug more Partitions out of game that you could reload and fire it's not even funny!!!

 

[FAL Shot]

The Partition is not a TURD at long range as long it is accurate in your rifle. The soft nose of the Partition opens up much more quickly than a Barnes TSX or any of the bonded bullets. It's secret is that is is NOT bonded and the nose opens up much more quickly than a bonded bullet but yet its rear section holds togehther and punches through better due to less frontal area since it sheds the nose and offers less rsistance to deep penetration....meaning it will probably punch through and leave a blood trail.

As far a bigngreen's comments goes, if he is a big game processor and he is digging out a Partition from dead game, then it did its job or he would not be digging out the bullet in the first place. What kind of moron would post such a comment????????????????????????????????????????????????????????