If you could shoot only one bullet for 45-70.

[Dean2]

Yes, I wold b

Interesting - could you tell us how the bullets failed and what the outcomes were?very interested to hear that too

Yes, I would be very interested to hear that too. I have used the 350 RN in my 460 Bee at 2800 fps and they didn't come apart at those speeds on Black Bear so no idea why they would 1000 fps slower

 

[Taj]

Interesting - could you tell us how the bullets failed and what the outcomes were?

Large buck zebra was shot just behind the shoulder at approx 65 yards. The bullet struck a rib and apparently came apart and failed to penetrate beyond the first lung. Tracked for a mile before I was able shoot him in the back of the head at 35 yards and kill him. Large warthog at 45 yards with hit on point of shoulder. Bullet fragmented but did break the onside shoulder however the pig went a quarter mile before it fell over. Large bull eland at 10 yards. Just behind the shoulder, both PH and tracker saw impact. Did not recover animal. Killed several smaller antelope (deer sized) between 65 and 125 yards and did not have a single bullet exit.

 

[Taj]

Next trip I went on I shot a 95 marlin in .45-70 as well as the Sharps. This time I had a supply of Garrett 540 grain Hammer heads which left the Marlin at right at 1550 fps. as advertised. It "pole axed" everything I shot with it and penetration was definitely not an issue. It was a game changer for me and one of the big reasons I switched over to heavy hardcast bullets.
The integrity of a cup and core bullet is largely dependent on the strength and design of the cup and how the core is bonded (or not bonded) to it. Some cups are designed to protect and retain the core but many rely on nothing more than some type of jacket cannalure for core retention. Most cores are either pure lead or a very soft lead alloy and easily deformed or fragmented, which can limit performance. I know there are good performing jacketed bullets out there but I am having great success with hardcast.

 

[AussieWriter]

Next trip I went on I shot a 95 marlin in .45-70 as well as the Sharps. This time I had a supply of Garrett 540 grain Hammer heads which left the Marlin at right at 1550 fps. as advertised. It "pole axed" everything I shot with it and penetration was definitely not an issue. It was a game changer for me and one of the big reasons I switched over to heavy hardcast bullets.
The integrity of a cup and core bullet is largely dependent on the strength and design of the cup and how the core is bonded (or not bonded) to it. Some cups are designed to protect and retain the core but many rely on nothing more than some type of jacket cannalure for core retention. Most cores are either pure lead or a very soft lead alloy and easily deformed or fragmented, which can limit performance. I know there are good performing jacketed bullets out there but I am having great success with hardcast.

I've culled some Aussie ferals with a Marlin 1895 single loaded with the old 500gn Hornady SP's at that velocity so I understand why you liked the Garrett's. Big bullets thump!

 

[Dean2]

So please explain. You peel the cooper jacket off the bullet, why would the pure lead core fragment.

I never discount a person's personal experience but the only explanation I can come up with is that was a defective box of bullets. I have shot literally hundreds of animals with the 350 grain RN at 1200 to 2800 fps. I have NEVER had one fail to penetrate or have one break up no matter what it hit.

In all the animals I have shot with it, I have recovered very few. The ones I have recovered look like these ones.

 

[Taj]

So please explain. You peel the cooper jacket off the bullet, why would the pure lead core fragment.

I never discount a person's personal experience but the only explanation I can come up with is that was a defective box of bullets. I have shot literally hundreds of animals with the 350 grain RN at 1200 to 2800 fps. I have NEVER had one fail to penetrate or have one break up no matter what it hit.

In all the animals I have shot with it, I have recovered very few. The ones I have recovered look like these ones.

View attachment 602770

In real world ballistics we do see lead fragmentation all the time. A lot of times it happens when impact velocity is very high and the lead is pushed to a work hardened state on impact. It's more prone to happen with lead alloys which most rifle bullet cores are made from but we also see it on handgun bullets when they strike heavy bone ( or windshield glass) at the hi-end of their operational velocity. The Interlocks have a pre-skived jacket and the skiving is curved to just below the radius of the ogive. The round nose bullet doesn't appear to have that pre-skived jacket. I can only conjecture that that pre-skiving caused really rapid expansion and possible breakup and failures to penetrate. Again the round nose 350 grain Hornady does not have that skiving and appears to be solid all the way to the exposed lead nose. I think the 350 RN is probably a better big game bullet than the Interlock. I think it was my mistake by pushing the Interlocks at a velocity that they were never intended to go.
Just a question. What the heck are you shooting to get 2800fps out of a 350 grain .458 bullet??

 

[Dean2]

In real world ballistics we do see lead fragmentation all the time. A lot of times it happens when impact velocity is very high and the lead is pushed to a work hardened state on impact. It's more prone to happen with lead alloys which most rifle bullet cores are made from but we also see it on handgun bullets when they strike heavy bone ( or windshield glass) at the hi-end of their operational velocity. The Interlocks have a pre-skived jacket and the skiving is curved to just below the radius of the ogive. The round nose bullet doesn't appear to have that pre-skived jacket. I can only conjecture that that pre-skiving caused really rapid expansion and possible breakup and failures to penetrate. Again the round nose 350 grain Hornady does not have that skiving and appears to be solid all the way to the exposed lead nose. I think the 350 RN is probably a better big game bullet than the Interlock. I think it was my mistake by pushing the Interlocks at a velocity that they were never intended to go.
Just a question. What the heck are you shooting to get 2800fps out of a 350 grain .458 bullet??

Didn't realise you were shooting spire point Interlocks. Never shot game with those. As to 2800 fps, that was out of a 460 Weatherby. Interesting thing is, despite all the flame, roar and recoil, they don't kill one bit better than the 45-70 does. It is the hole that kills, not the speed. It was what truly convinced me that ft pounds of energy is a totally useless way of estimating effective killing power. If it was millions of Bison would still be alive, and a 54 calbre muzzle loader would have never killed a thing, let alone a spear or arrow.

 

[Taj]

Didn't realise you were shooting spire point Interlocks. Never shot game with those. As to 2800 fps, that was out of a 460 Weatherby. Interesting thing is, despite all the flame, roar and recoil, they don't kill one bit better than the 45-70 does. It is the hole that kills, not the speed. It was what truly convinced me that ft pounds of energy is a totally useless way of estimating effective killing power. If it was millions of Bison would still be alive, and a 54 calbre muzzle loader would have never killed a thing, let alone a spear or arrow.

Dean2
Absolutely agree with you on the velocity issue. As we get older we get wiser. Actually those bullets were not spire point but do have a very flat nose on them compared to the RN 350 grain bullets. I've shot a lot of .458 Win Mag but never played with the .460. That thing is a beast. I've killed a bit of big game with the .458 and it has always done a good job for me despite the cartridges early, not so good reputation. I think that rep was based on bullet and powder technology of that time, and things are certainly better these days. I'm not a ballistic engineer but in my job I do work with some that are highly credentialed and experienced so I pick up a lot of interesting tid bits along the way. I shoot a lot of gelatin doing FBI protocol ballistic LE workshops for a big ammo company and get to pick their brains on a regular basis. I sometimes drive them crazy.

 

[bigngreen]

My go to bullet was the 300 gr HP in a mauser 45-70, absolutely wrecking ball on elk and deer, worst bullet I shot was the 350 round nose, 405 flat was OK on elk not great on deer and 520 lead was good on elk and rocks. Nothing flattened elk like the 300 gr though!!

 

[AussieWriter]

My go to bullet was the 300 gr HP in a mauser 45-70, absolutely wrecking ball on elk and deer, worst bullet I shot was the 350 round nose, 405 flat was OK on elk not great on deer and 520 lead was good on elk and rocks. Nothing flattened elk like the 300 gr though!!

Which 300gn are you referring to?
Hornady made 2 (the previous version had a rounded ogive and the later a secant ogive.

I found the older Hornady the toughest.

 

[std7mag]

I'm just getting ready to start reloading for my Henry Single Shot Brass in 45-70.

I picked up some 300gr Sierra JHP.

I'm thinking though that powder choice may be more important than bullet choice.

4 shots of Federal Premium.

My shotgun shoots cleaner.

 

[Dean2]

I'm just getting ready to start reloading for my Henry Single Shot Brass in 45-70.

I picked up some 300gr Sierra JHP.

I'm thinking though that powder choice may be more important than bullet choice.

4 shots of Federal Premium.

My shotgun shoots cleaner.

Use Fed 215 or Winchester magnum primers and crimp the bullet. Large bore rifles tend to leave unburned powder and powder grains otherwise.

 

[Varmint Hunter]

Large buck zebra was shot just behind the shoulder at approx 65 yards. The bullet struck a rib and apparently came apart and failed to penetrate beyond the first lung. Tracked for a mile before I was able shoot him in the back of the head at 35 yards and kill him. Large warthog at 45 yards with hit on point of shoulder. Bullet fragmented but did break the onside shoulder however the pig went a quarter mile before it fell over. Large bull eland at 10 yards. Just behind the shoulder, both PH and tracker saw impact. Did not recover animal. Killed several smaller antelope (deer sized) between 65 and 125 yards and did not have a single bullet exit.

Thanks for the update - All good reasons to use Swift 350gr A-Frames on your next trip.