I need some help from the reloading gurus.

[Teri Anne]

Here's what I've got. It's a Savage 308 win. I used Federal gold medal match for the barrel breakin and then worked up a load in the Federal brass that was shooting 1/4 moa with 168 grain Amax and 46 grains of Varget and a 210M primer. I only had about 40 pieces of Federal brass so after it was getting pretty shot out I grabbed a box of Lapua brass. I knew I'd have to tweak the load some but I expected just a small powder charge adjustment because I have done similar with other rifles In the past. Instead though this rifle just shoots like crap with the Lapua brass. 45.8 grains shoots the best at about 3/4". So you think the brass needs fire formed first to shoot well? I've always had good luck with Lapua right out of the box. What are some of your thoughts??

I have not changed anything g else in the load. I just took the 1/4 moa load and put it in the Lapua brass. Same primer. Same bullet. Same seating depth. And the same charge at first. Then I went up to 46.6 grains and 45.5 grains. 45.8 shot around 3/4 moa and below that opened up and above that opened up. It's got me a little puzzled.

Here's a pic of how it was shooting with the Federal brass. I know it says 45.8 grains but 46 (like I said above) proved to be the better load after more testing.

I know some of you will po po this, but I have never found that the manufacturer of brass made a lot of difference in accuracy. All that brass does is contain the important stuff, primer, powder and bullet. The only difference I have noted between different brands of brass is how many times that they can be reloaded. I do not mix brands of brass, new they are all from the same lot or if once fired from the same box. New brass right out of the box or bag needs to be treated exactly the same as once fired brass. It needs to be dimension checked, full length resized, trimmed to the same length you trim once fired brass to. The powder charge needs to be weighed to the exact weight for each and every round. Bullets need to be checked that they are at the proper dimension and weight and the bullets seated to the exact same depth with the exact same bullet jump from the bullet to the rifling. This is extremely important because different bullet designs have different ogive's which affect how far the bullet will actually travel before engaging the rifling. Hornady makes a tool that makes determining this dimension easy, and it's also inexpensive and accurate. If all is assembled properly your group sizes should not vary and your zero maybe requiring only slight tweaking.

 

[ShootnMathews]

i agree with that, when you know your rifle well, its easy to tell when a load isn't shooting like it should.

my 223 always shoots 0.3-0.6 moa 5 shot groups rather readily, once it starts leaning towards the higher end i know it needs a good cleaning.

thanks for the clarification, 2" groups is a much different story than 0.75" groups.

No problem. The 2"+ groups were with the virgin Lapua at 46 grains like the under 1/2moa Federal load. The best I got with the virgin Lapua was about .75" at a different charge.

But we'll see tonight how these loads go. I think the key was/is this lot of Lapua really needs shot once to uniform some. I've always seen that with new brass some but never in this level. No big deal. All manufacturers are slinging products out to try to keep up.

And I know what you mean. My 6.5-284 is the same way. When accuracy falls off or POI shifts I clean it. And I know one day cleaning won't fix it because at that point it'll be shot out. The 6.5-284 likes to eat barrels.

 

[emp1953]

No sir I don't. A chronograph is on my wish list but I don't have one yet. I should have one by now you'd think

Go to the range with someone who owns one.

 

[ShootnMathews]

I want to clarify something here. I am not a benchrest shooter. I'm a hunter. When I said "1/4 MOA load" I meant it as a rough description of how the load was averaging because I don't often measure groups. I can look at it and see if it's acceptable for my hunting standards. More like when a buddy walks up and says "that's a good looking rifle. How's it shoot?" I'd say "It shoots a good 1/4 MOA" which in redneck Hunter means more that 50% of the groups are 1/4 MOA. If most of the groups were between 1/4 and 1/2 moa i'd have said "it shoots a good 1/2 MOA". I never mean the rifle was one holing with my worse group being 1/4 MOA. This is more a picture of how the larger end of the groups are running with the original federal brass load.

 

[ericbc7]

I've had my eye on a magneto speed but honestly I know nothing about chronos. If you were say just starting out and wanted to pick up one for load work that was accurate and did the job but didn't break the wallet which one would you buy? I guess I'm asking which one do you think is the best deal. . Thanks again. I value your input.

It depends on the facility at which you plan to shoot. An inexpensive optical chrono is fine in many cases if you can mess about in front of the bench. At places where it's hard or unsafe to get to the chrono, like busy public ranges, the magnetospeed is much preferred.

 

[Savage 22-243 AI]

Here's what I've got. It's a Savage 308 win. I used Federal gold medal match for the barrel breakin and then worked up a load in the Federal brass that was shooting 1/4 moa with 168 grain Amax and 46 grains of Varget and a 210M primer. I only had about 40 pieces of Federal brass so after it was getting pretty shot out I grabbed a box of Lapua brass. I knew I'd have to tweak the load some but I expected just a small powder charge adjustment because I have done similar with other rifles In the past. Instead though this rifle just shoots like crap with the Lapua brass. 45.8 grains shoots the best at about 3/4". So you think the brass needs fire formed first to shoot well? I've always had good luck with Lapua right out of the box. What are some of your thoughts??

I have not changed anything g else in the load. I just took the 1/4 moa load and put it in the Lapua brass. Same primer. Same bullet. Same seating depth. And the same charge at first. Then I went up to 46.6 grains and 45.5 grains. 45.8 shot around 3/4 moa and below that opened up and above that opened up. It's got me a little puzzled.

Here's a pic of how it was shooting with the Federal brass. I know it says 45.8 grains but 46 (like I said above) proved to be the better load after more testing.

You have some awesome answers.
If not mentioned yet, load the Fed brass and get the magic group, then chronograph that load. Now load Lapua to same velocity. If both loads don't deviate much that might help.
When I work up a load I go by best and closest chronograph results.
My Savage custom bench rest .308 running 155 gr. A-Max and Varget with CCI primers and Winchester brass.
3163/3177/3177 velocities.
Most accurate load for my rifle right now.

Hope something here might help.

 

[ShootnMathews]

It depends on the facility at which you plan to shoot. An inexpensive optical chrono is fine in many cases if you can mess about in front of the bench. At places where it's hard or unsafe to get to the chrono, like busy public ranges, the magnetospeed is much preferred.

9 out of 10 times I'm shooting at home so that's mostly a non issue.

 

[sturner]

Just my opinion I shoot 5 shot groups
3 shot groups don't tell the tale
I had too many 3 one hole and the other 2 ain't in
I reloaded for 15 years before I got a chrono
It makes it easier but not mandatory

 

[VinceMule]

l

Ex: I rebarreled a Savage to 6mm Rem (SAAMI). I used Hornady brass and did break-in and work-up. Just for grins, I plugged the primer pocket with clay and filled a case or 2 with water before firing, and after firing, I repeated this test. Almost 5 grains (FIVE GRAINS!) of difference between the before and after! That's about a 9% increase! That's a whole 'nother cartridge!! So yes, if you did workup with 1x brass, you'll have to continue to use 1x brass, regardless of brand. The change in capacity/chamber fit is radical outside of a custom match chamber. It changes the whole dynamic of the harmonics. Not as simple as equalizing pressure between the 2 loads.

Try that same experiment on your full length sized brass vs neck sized brass

 

[Boss Hoss]

Bull Bull and more Bull you know what.

Your chamber is pretty much fixed. The case capacity after a couple firings is the chamber capacity minus the case weight, OK? Its physics. The brass has expanded to whatever size the chamber is reamed at, plus headspace. ASSUMING you are not full length resizing every round.....

Lighter cases accept more powder. Heavy cases accept less. The ratio of brass to to powder is small -- brass is denser by far, right at 20:1, but not inconsequential.

Crap, why is this concept such a challenge for some people..........

You are 100% wrong. Just to show you this man is a HOF shooter has held world accuracy records in the past and I have spent 100's of hours in his shop. You head would explode if you were to witness even how he carefully turns brass including the lube he uses so heat will not impact the machining of the neck thickness just as one step.

Speedy does not waste his time weighing cases. Conducted exhaustive research on this and it is of no benefit. Some folks still do it, but they are not gaining anything by it except making themselves feel better. With some people that is all it takes and if it helps them so be it.

 

[Boss Hoss]

Just my opinion I shoot 5 shot groups
3 shot groups don't tell the tale
I had too many 3 one hole and the other 2 ain't in
I reloaded for 15 years before I got a chrono
It makes it easier but not mandatory

When evaluating a new tube and components I use 10 shot groups. Will tell you this---for long rang shooting a chronograph is a must if you do not want vertical dispersion. Do the math because at 1k or more it really becomes painfully apparent just what a 50fps (just an example I shoot for 15 fps max) difference between the high and low shot makes on drift and vertical disposition.

After you shoot 1k BR and getting instruction from some of the best shooters has made my process of shooting much more regimented when evaluating a new rifle and or tube.

 

[VinceMule]

HOF= Benchrest Hall of Fame

I also measure volume, when comparing brands of brass. You can pick up a lot of weight in the thickness of the neck, as someone has mentioned, and this small issue skews the weight issue. Also, different brands of brass can be of different alloys.

So when you are weighing different brands of brass, you are not comparing apples to apples. Weighing can be a "rough" indicator.

Weighing in the same brand and same lot number can produce useable results, and if you want to take it to the next step, measure the run out in front of the web, in thickness...this is where the rubber meets the road.

 

[MontanaJack]

Determine water weight to compare case volume between brands of brass. Bullet seating depth also varies case volume and internal pressure. I general, I found that adjusting bullet jump can improve accuracy. Lots of variables in play. Once I find a sweet spot, I stick with one brand of brass. There is significant variation between brands. Good luck!

 

[Tiny Tim]

Most Virgin brass won't give you the info you need. I've had varying results. Last batch of Lapua 243 brass fire forming to AI gave es of mid teens and SD of 6 for 40+ rounds. That's incredible considering the brass movement. I've also come to realize that I get early pressure signs with Virgin brass. Best to do load development with fire formed brass. Guessing your coming to that conclusion despite past experiences.