I need some help from the reloading gurus.

[Paulstarr]

One of the guy's has already pointed out the thickness difference,Federal is 16 thou and Lapua is 15 thou, so there is a pressure reduction in the Lap case, a chronograph will show in fps what that is.Check the neck tension between both cases by measuring the necks, if you use neck bushings you will find that the bush used for Federal is NOT suitable for the Lapua brass because of the difference in wall thickness.Once you have fire formed the Lap brass work up a load to suit it.It's always a good idea NOT to mix brass especially for long range work.
Hope it helps, stay safe.

 

[ShootnMathews]

+1. I always fireform new Lapua brass and if I bought other than Lapua brass new I'd fireform it as well.

In general I always get more consistency and better groups with fire formed brass. But what blew my mind and started this thread is I have never had such bad groups from the virgin brass which made me question many other factors. I found out last night that the once fired Lapua with the exact same load went from 2" to 0.58".

 

[Louisiana Reloader]

No. I'll go weigh them now. From my experience Lapua is slightly thinner than federal and needs a little more powder to hit the same pressure. So I just went on past experience.

I think you are on the right track by weighing the brass to check the internal volume differences. Additionally, it would be very nice to have chrono data for both loads to see what differences you are getting there also. Typically, Lapua brass is thicker and builds up pressure faster (with the same charge weight) than say your factory brands of brass--I know it is thicker and more rigid than Nosler brass....Nosler brass is soft. However, I have not used Federal brass in many years so I do not really have good information when comparing it to Lapua. There is definitely a pressure difference in the two and how radical that is I do not know--the chrono would help tell you some of that as well as some signs that could be on the brass. Lots of good advice has been given and I agree: I would continue to shoot what you have and not worry too much about the 3/4 MOA and see if they tighten up. BUT.....I would definitely try to get some chrono numbers--especially if you could load up the same loads again with the Federal brass and compare it to the Lapua brass velocities. Hope this helps.

 

[ShootnMathews]

One of the guy's has already pointed out the thickness difference,Federal is 16 thou and Lapua is 15 thou, so there is a pressure reduction in the Lap case, a chronograph will show in fps what that is.Check the neck tension between both cases by measuring the necks, if you use neck bushings you will find that the bush used for Federal is NOT suitable for the Lapua brass because of the difference in wall thickness.Once you have fire formed the Lap brass work up a load to suit it.It's always a good idea NOT to mix brass especially for long range work.
Hope it helps, stay safe.

Absolutely. And I am just FL sizing this brass so I'm sure neck tension is different between the Fed and the Lap but I think as long as it is uniform amount at the Lap brass I should be able to tune the load for it. The once fired Lapua shot 400% better than the virgin brass. Literally. 2" plus's to .58". So I can't pinpoint what causes this batch of virgin brass to shoot so bad but I'm ok now knowing that once I run it through things will shoot to my standards. All I want is 1/2 moa and I'm good. I'll never shoot this gun past 500 at an animal. I have better guns for that.

 

[ShootnMathews]

I think you are on the right track by weighing the brass to check the internal volume differences. Additionally, it would be very nice to have chrono data for both loads to see what differences you are getting there also. Typically, Lapua brass is thicker and builds up pressure faster (with the same charge weight) than say your factory brands of brass--I know it is thicker and more rigid than Nosler brass....Nosler brass is soft. However, I have not used Federal brass in many years so I do not really have good information when comparing it to Lapua. There is definitely a pressure difference in the two and how radical that is I do not know--the chrono would help tell you some of that as well as some signs that could be on the brass. Lots of good advice has been given and I agree: I would continue to shoot what you have and not worry too much about the 3/4 MOA and see if they tighten up. BUT.....I would definitely try to get some chrono numbers--especially if you could load up the same loads again with the Federal brass and compare it to the Lapua brass velocities. Hope this helps.

Unfortunately I don't have a chrono yet. It's in my to buy list. I've put it off way too many years.

 

[knc1105]

I have not read all 5- pages but if this is a Savage bolt gun and you are not voting for a AR-10, I only FL size before first firing and Collet neck size after that. Keeps your fire-forming and almost eliminates trimming with a factory taper crimp.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

I agree with almost everything you said. I don't think brass has as much influence on accuracy as seating depth and powder charge but the brass does affect grouping because of volume and pressures. And all I'm trying to do now is work back up into the node. I started this thread because the new box of Lapua I expected to shoot great by just taking it out of the box, sizing and trimming but instead it shot like dog crap. I mean like a 2" group. Which made me question a lot. What I found out yesterday though is I took some of the once fired brass and sized, trimmed, chamfered and all the crap I normally do in brass prep and the rifle shot MUCH better with the last charge shooting .58". I think with these next loads this evening I'll be back into the node and under 1/2". And I also certainly do not expect the rifle nor myself to shoot 1/4moa reliably. I set 1/2MOA is my goal and good enough for me. This rifle however did shoot fantastic in the Hornady brass and averaged under 1/2 MOA reliably with many groups being close to 1/4 moa or smaller. That said I've never had great brass life with Hornady so that's why I buy Lapua. I'm not a real picture taker so I guess you'll just have to take my word for it. I usually only take pics when I'm asking questions or it's just an amazing group. Most groups I was getting with the federal averaged between .20 and .35" which is close enough for me to say 1/4moa load as a rough descriptive term. As far as 5 shot groups I'm having too hard of a time finding the components or paying the price when I do find them to shoot all 5 shot groups when working on a load these days. If it doesn't shoot well in 3 shots it's not going to shoot any Better with 2 more in my opinion.

All I want is 1/2 moa reliably and I'm happy with that from any rifle.

Here's what pics I have taken while working on this load. All 3 shot groups. Some measured and some not.

i agree with that, when you know your rifle well, its easy to tell when a load isn't shooting like it should.

my 223 always shoots 0.3-0.6 moa 5 shot groups rather readily, once it starts leaning towards the higher end i know it needs a good cleaning.

thanks for the clarification, 2" groups is a much different story than 0.75" groups.

 

[Six-xray]

Ok guys. For those following here's this evenings shooting. I took 9 of the 12 Lapua cases that I have fired and loaded them working up because I know from past experience that I'll need a little hotter load in Lapua. I was hoping that maybe this rifle just needed the brass fire formed and I think that is the case. I FL sized, trimmed, chamfered the brass and brushed the neck inside extremely well and then started at 46 grains which was the load the federal brass shot 1/4 MOA. Then I loaded 46.2 and 46.4. Here are the pics. The 46 shot a little over an inch vertical. The 46.2 shot about 1" vertical and the 46.4 shot about 1/2" vertical. I don't know if I pulled that last shot low or not on the 46.4. Im betting not since the other groups were vertical. With the virgin brass I got just the ever so slightest cratering on the primer at 46.6 so I'm on the fence as to whether to try 46.5. I probably will because I think that will pull it all together. Maybe even 46.6. How bad is a little cratering anyways? j/k. On the virgin 46.6 you could just barely feel where the pin strike was. So I'm not going to say I got a bad batch of Lapua brass because I love Lapua brass. I'm just going to say this rifle likes fire formed brass. . For reference that red sticker is 3/4"

Edit: I have to try some fire formed Lapua at 46.6. I think it will pull the group back together into sub 1/2 MOA. Which is good enough for me. This is a sub 500 yard deer rifle for me. I'm not even worried about ES and SD really. It won't matter much that close as long as they group decent. Most shots will be under 300

Differences in case volume, case fill capacity and bulletseating depth will yield different results.

 

[Randy Tidwell]

In my current thoughts/opinion (liable to change in the future),

brass doesn't mean as much accuracy wise as most people think. Good brass means more from a longevity standpoint more than anything.

all you likely did was throw yourself out of a tune/node from the change in case capacity.

lets get to the real issue at hand:

for starters, i think your 0.163" group you posted is very unrealistic. if thats what your expectation is every time you shoot that gun you are going to be pretty **** disappointed alot.

1/4 moa consistently is top winning shooter ppc benchrest level, and even then……

i bet you if you shoot your "1/4 moa" federal load enough times it will probably shoot the same as your "crap 3/4" lapua load.

show me five 5 shot groups, or even five 3 shot groups of your federal load, and then we'll see where the issue truly lies.

i am just saying i think you may be setting yourself up for unrealistic expectations and driving yourself nuts over statistical vavariation.

Sigma, took the words out of my mouth.

I have BR rifles that won't constantly shoot 1/4"

In my younger days I ran a small chain of gun stores. I kept my first rail gun set up on the back counter with a cover over it.

Guys would come in claiming their factory rifle would shoot 1/4" groups with factory ammo ALL DAY LONG!

I would pull the cover off and say "If you want to talk accuracy, I can do that. If you want to BS, let's go get a beer!" Then cover it back up.

It was always fun to see the BS stop!

I'm sure the OP has a good rifle, but expectations are a little on the high side.

Regarding weighing cases, case weight between brands tells you nothing about volume, different alloys weigh different.

I weigh cases after 2nd firing. Then start shooting groups, if I get a flyer, it's marked and loaded again.

If it does not go in the group again, you can find that case out in the dirt at the range where I threw it.

Regarding brass not attributing to accuracy, I completely disagree!

Just the ramblings of an old shooter.

 

[ShootnMathews]

I have not read all 5- pages but if this is a Savage bolt gun and you are not voting for a AR-10, I only FL size before first firing and Collet neck size after that. Keeps your fire-forming and almost eliminates trimming with a factory taper crimp.

We all have our own style. Myself I always FL size and set the shoulder back .002" and that produces great accuracy for me in most of my rifles.

What originally made me post this thread though is I switched from federal brass that I worked the load up with to new Lapua brass. Now when I've done this before with other rifles the groups always opened up and needed some charge tweaking and even at the best charge always shot bigger groups with the virgin brass and then tightened back up with the once fired brass. But I have never seen it this bad. My load that shot reliably under 1/2" went to well over 2" when I went to the virgin Lapua brass which made me question many more things about the load. Now, when I took some of the once fired brass and reloaded it with the same charge it shrunk to a little over an inch which is more like what I expected from the virgin brass. After tweaking the charge some I now have it down to almost 1/2" and I think the loads I shoot tonight will be under 1/2" if the trend continues. So I'm not going to say I got a bad batch of Lapua brass I'll just say this rifle really likes fire formed brass.

 

[5280Reloader]

I have never delved in to the inside capacity of cases. I typically start with one brand of brass and stick with it. I'm curious to know how this goes moving forward.

 

[ButterBean]

All of this over new brass that needed fired 2 more times to get settled

 

[ShootnMathews]

Sigma, took the words out of my mouth.

I have BR rifles that won't constantly shoot 1/4"

In my younger days I ran a small chain of gun stores. I kept my first rail gun set up on the back counter with a cover over it.

Guys would come in claiming their factory rifle would shoot 1/4" groups with factory ammo ALL DAY LONG!

I would pull the cover off and say "If you want to talk accuracy, I can do that. If you want to BS, let's go get a beer!" Then cover it back up.

It was always fun to see the BS stop!

I'm sure the OP has a good rifle, but expectations are a little on the high side.

Regarding weighing cases, case weight between brands tells you nothing about volume, different alloys weigh different.

I weigh cases after 2nd firing. Then start shooting groups, if I get a flyer, it's marked and loaded again.

If it does not go in the group again, you can find that case out in the dirt at the range where I threw it.

Regarding brass not attributing to accuracy, I completely disagree!

Just the ramblings of an old shooter.

To save from typing my whole reply to Sigmas reply I'm going to copy and paste it. But first I want to say I never said the gun shot 1/4 moa or less all day on its worse day. I simply meant it as a rough description of how the load was averaging so when I referred to the load group it was known that it was shooting well in the federal brass. In reality about 75% of the groups I shot with that load were in the 1/4" and under range with the other 25% being between 1/4 and 1/2". Edited to add : when I said brass doesn't have as much effect on grouping I meant in relationship to the other factors. If you're wanting a bench rifle then yea you need to uniform all your brass. If you're making a 500 yards hunting load like I am brass really isn't going to make that much difference. I've never had to neck turn, weight sort, flash hole deburr and all that other stuff to get a 1/2 moa 500 yard load on any of my hunting rifles.

Copied:
I agree with almost everything you said. I don't think brass has as much influence on accuracy as seating depth and powder charge but the brass does affect grouping because of volume and pressures. And all I'm trying to do now is work back up into the node. I started this thread because the new box of Lapua I expected to shoot great by just taking it out of the box, sizing and trimming but instead it shot like dog crap. I mean like a 2" group. Which made me question a lot. What I found out yesterday though is I took some of the once fired brass and sized, trimmed, chamfered and all the crap I normally do in brass prep and the rifle shot MUCH better with the last charge shooting .58". I think with these next loads this evening I'll be back into the node and under 1/2". And I also certainly do not expect the rifle nor myself to shoot 1/4moa reliably. I set 1/2MOA is my goal and good enough for me. This rifle however did shoot fantastic in the Hornady brass and averaged under 1/2 MOA reliably with many groups being close to 1/4 moa or smaller. That said I've never had great brass life with Hornady so that's why I buy Lapua. I'm not a real picture taker so I guess you'll just have to take my word for it. I usually only take pics when I'm asking questions or it's just an amazing group. Most groups I was getting with the federal averaged between .20 and .35" which is close enough for me to say 1/4moa load as a rough descriptive term. As far as 5 shot groups I'm having too hard of a time finding the components or paying the price when I do find them to shoot all 5 shot groups when working on a load these days. If it doesn't shoot well in 3 shots it's not going to shoot any Better with 2 more in my opinion.

All I want is 1/2 moa reliably and I'm happy with that from any rifle.

Here's what pics I have taken while working on this load. All 3 shot groups. Some measured and some not.

 

[ShootnMathews]

All of this over new brass that needed fired 2 more times to get settled

Exactly! I posted this because I've never had so much difference in a new box of brass and what I was using and I expected answers like "yeah that's common with my latest boxes of Lapua. Shoot it all and reload it and it'll be fine". OR something like that. Instead I've got a whole range of stuff with some seeming like I've claimed to have the best shooting rifle know to man because I used "1/4 moa load" as a rough description of how the federal load was averaging to shoot. . I did get a lot of helpful info as well though so it was worth it.