Hunting with the Lapua Scenar bullet (muzzle velocity above 3000fps)

[M Rosslee]

I can only answer for us. Here goes.

1. I think the fact that the cnc kind of allows the ability to make what ever you can dream up perhaps makes some get too creative? I think some mono manufactures try to compensate for the fact that copper is less dense than lead by tying to make the bullet more sleek in order to get the higher bc. BC is a function of weight and form. The weight is a very big part of the bc equation and just can't be overcome. In my opinion. We have designed our bullets only with a tangent ogive. This is the more traditional ogive. It is easier to shoot but not as good for bc. We have intentionally made our bullets a little heavier in form rather than sleeker. With a little more forward weight. We have one goal....accuracy and terminal performance. Let the bc fall were it may.

2. Dual metal....interesting thought. I will not rule anything out. The only other metal that I have ever considered would be tungsten. It is heavy so it would help with bc. There are companies using plastic or other material tips inserted into larger hollow pt. holes. I don't like the idea of plugging the hole that needs hydraulics for expansion. With a lead core bullet the lead kind of acts like the hydraulic material because it is so soft. The other thing that comes to mind here is that any time you add another process to manufacturing it makes the cost of the product increase.

3. Because of the lower density of copper compared to lead there really is no choice for the bullet to be lighter for the same size. Only two ways to make them heavier. Add mass to the nose or make them longer. Stability is the concern here. Stability is a function of weight, length, and twist. A heavier bullet of the exact same form needs less twist to be stable. So for a mono to stabilize in standard twist rifles it has to be lighter. This increases muzzle vel. We design our bullets to keep more % of original weight than most bullets, so after impact and deformation they are then bigger than the conventional bullet as they continue through the animal.

One other thing. Sectional density has very little to do with form. The formula for sectional density is the same for all bullets. Weight in grains divided by 7000 divided by caliber divided by caliber.

Steve

Steve, thank you for the well constructed and diligent response. It really is appreciated.

Have you considered sending your product to compete in South Africa and maybe test the water here a bit?

It may be worth a shot...

Dual metals sounds like an expensive exercise. But I've often thought of perhaps exploring the effects of a tungsten base and core with a softer copper jacket and point (match-bullet style) that will fold around that core (doubling caliber diameter for widening wound channel).

To bond the copper to the tungsten and limit its expansion will be the expensive challenge... But I think with the right approach it may be feasible exploring.

Because the tungsten base need not take on the form of a bullet, merely suffice as a shank/core for inner weight for penetration - the form will be derived by copper formation around that (boat tail and nose etc) - bearing surface can also be controlled well this way and separation won't lead to lead dispersion - the solid tungsten core/shank may go on about its business.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Steve, thank you for the well constructed and diligent response. It really is appreciated.

Have you considered sending your product to compete in South Africa and maybe test the water here a bit?

It may be worth a shot...

Dual metals sounds like an expensive exercise. But I've often thought of perhaps exploring the effects of a tungsten base and core with a softer copper jacket and point (match-bullet style) that will fold around that core (doubling caliber diameter for widening wound channel).

To bond the copper to the tungsten and limit its expansion will be the expensive challenge... But I think with the right approach it may be feasible exploring.

Because the tungsten base need not take on the form of a bullet, merely suffice as a shank/core for inner weight for penetration - the form will be derived by copper formation around that (boat tail and nose etc) - bearing surface can also be controlled well this way and separation won't lead to lead dispersion - the solid tungsten core/shank may go on about its business.

Right now we are so young in our business that I have not considered Africa. I would be willing to sell them there for sure. The little that I have checked with shipping it becomes quite expensive.

I am sure that at some point we will mess with other ideas in design. Right now I am the head sales guy, machinist, and R&D dept. At some point in the future I am sure I will be able to pass a couple of those hats.

I would love to get our bullets on a hunt in Africa. It would be even better if it were me shooting them.

Steve

 

[Hondo64d]

Hi John

Awesome. I'm actually shooting 155gr Lapua Scenars now out of a Remington Model 700 in 308 Win with a 26" bullbarrel with 1:12" twist at around 2820fps... As a target platform it puts three shots in at a half inch at 220 yards..

I haven't taken any heads of game with it yet. But it's best, as you say, when velocity is sub3000fps, to use expanding bullets with the right form and ballistic characteristics.

I'm thinking of loading 150gr Sierra Gamekings. I load the 180gr Gameking in the 30-06 and have shot large species such as waterbuck, kudu and bluewildebeest at around 2600fps.

At around 2850fps the 150gr Sierra Gameking ought to do a pretty good job of most smaller soft-skinned antelope without overwhelming hydrostatic shock and pretty quick kills.

I've use 150gr game kings out of a .308 quite a bit. It works well on animals, but has the BC of a ping pong ball...

John

 

[Kansaswoodguy]

My brother was running the barns 70gr in 223 rem for whitetail and he had issues with them opening reliably also. We dropped to 55 gr barns or Hornady GMX and push them rather fast and all that stopped happening. My suggestion to anyone wanting to use the solid copper bullets is run light to mid weight for caliber and push them fast. Copper bullets need speed.

M Rosslee

Very nice collection of fine animals harvested makes me want to make a trip over there sometime.

 

[WildRose]

Right now we are so young in our business that I have not considered Africa. I would be willing to sell them there for sure. The little that I have checked with shipping it becomes quite expensive.

I am sure that at some point we will mess with other ideas in design. Right now I am the head sales guy, machinist, and R&D dept. At some point in the future I am sure I will be able to pass a couple of those hats.

I would love to get our bullets on a hunt in Africa. It would be even better if it were me shooting them.

Steve

The biggest problem with marketing in Africa is the shipping, import duty, and VAT add up very quickly and make it difficult for imports to compete.

 

[M Rosslee]

My brother was running the barns 70gr in 223 rem for whitetail and he had issues with them opening reliably also. We dropped to 55 gr barns or Hornady GMX and push them rather fast and all that stopped happening. My suggestion to anyone wanting to use the solid copper bullets is run light to mid weight for caliber and push them fast. Copper bullets need speed.

M Rosslee

Very nice collection of fine animals harvested makes me want to make a trip over there sometime.

Thanks a lot Kansawoodguy... We are very fortunate here in respect of opportunities. If your're ever interested to come hunt here, I have a lot of friends that will be more than happy to set you up for a decent safari.

I have heard the same about copper projectiles requiring high velocity, but as stressed by Steve I think it has a lot to do with twist optimisation too.

 

[M Rosslee]

The biggest problem with marketing in Africa is the shipping, import duty, and VAT add up very quickly and make it difficult for imports to compete.

If you guys ever need any information regarding the South African market and entry channels to launching products, let me know.

We have a large franchise here, like your Cabela's, named Safari and Outdoor and I'm sure they would entertain talks of importing your product to compete with the others.

 

[M Rosslee]

I've use 150gr game kings out of a .308 quite a bit. It works well on animals, but has the BC of a ping pong ball...

John

That's when you need a Burris Eliminator scope

The guys here shoot them in 308 too but with the compensation calculator scope.

 

[WildRose]

If you guys ever need any information regarding the South African market and entry channels to launching products, let me know.

We have a large franchise here, like your Cabela's, named Safari and Outdoor and I'm sure they would entertain talks of importing your product to compete with the others.

I'm familiar with them. Classic Arms in Witbank also carries a large selection of reloading gear and supplies but due to the taxes and import fees it's just difficult for US manufacturers to be competitive.

You guys have a huge advantage as well in cheap labor and an immense wealth in raw materials.

I'm sure though that the guys appreciate the offer.

 

[WildRose]

That's when you need a Burris Eliminator scope

The guys here shoot them in 308 too but with the compensation calculator scope.

I was under the impression that Swarovski and Leupold were probably the more popular imported scopes.

I was favorably impressed with the Lynx scopes produced there in the RSA, at least the few examples I got to look at and through.

 

[M Rosslee]

I was under the impression that Swarovski and Leupold were probably the more popular imported scopes.

I was favorably impressed with the Lynx scopes produced there in the RSA, at least the few examples I got to look at and through.

I have a Lynx LX2 2.5-15x50 on my 30-06 and I'll tell you that it gives my Zeiss and Nikon Monarchs a run for their money.

I was pleasantly surprised by the Nikon Monarch 3 6-24x50 with the "fine target dot" reticle. Incredible clarity on 24 magnification and parallax adjustments and the dot doesn't cover a 1x1" sticker at 200m, you can see the outer edges of the sticker.

 

[M Rosslee]

I was under the impression that Swarovski and Leupold were probably the more popular imported scopes.

I was favorably impressed with the Lynx scopes produced there in the RSA, at least the few examples I got to look at and through.

My gals

Far Left: .30-06Springfield, Howa Model 1500, Howa thumbhole, bedded and free-floated, Lynx low mounts, 2.5-15x50 LX2 Lynx Scope with fine duplex crosshair (fires a 180gr bullet at 2640fps in 0.6MOA groups)

Second from left: .338 Winchester Magnum, Howa Model 1500, Walnut hunter, aluminium block-bedded, recoil suppression system fitted into stock, Zeiss 4-12 x 50 Duralyt with Reticle 6 fine crosshair (fires a 225gr bullet at 2810fps at 0.5MOA group)

Third from left: 243 Winchester, Howa Model 1500, Boyd's Prairie Hunter stock, glass-bedded and free-floated, Nikon Monarch 3 5-20x44 mounted on Lynx low mounts (fires 90gr Lapua Scenar at 3150fps at 0.25MOA group).

Far right: .308 Winchester, Remington Model 700 Varminter Laminated Stock, factory fit to stock, Nikon Monarch 3 6-24x50, match trigger (fires 155gr Lapua Scenar at 2810fps at 0.4MOA group).

 

[WildRose]

My gals

Far Left: .30-06Springfield, Howa Model 1500, Howa thumbhole, bedded and free-floated, Lynx low mounts, 2.5-15x50 LX2 Lynx Scope with fine duplex crosshair (fires a 180gr bullet at 2640fps in 0.6MOA groups)

Second from left: .338 Winchester Magnum, Howa Model 1500, Walnut hunter, aluminium block-bedded, recoil suppression system fitted into stock, Zeiss 4-12 x 50 Duralyt with Reticle 6 fine crosshair (fires a 225gr bullet at 2810fps at 0.5MOA group)

Third from left: 243 Winchester, Howa Model 1500, Boyd's Prairie Hunter stock, glass-bedded and free-floated, Nikon Monarch 3 5-20x44 mounted on Lynx low mounts (fires 90gr Lapua Scenar at 3150fps at 0.25MOA group).

Far right: .308 Winchester, Remington Model 700 Varminter Laminated Stock, factory fit to stock, Nikon Monarch 3 6-24x50, match trigger (fires 155gr Lapua Scenar at 2810fps at 0.4MOA group).

Nice little collection there. Knowing what it takes to buy just one in the RSA I can really appreciate the time and money you have invested in them.

 

[M Rosslee]

Some more black-backed jackal with the 90gr Lapua Scenar out of 243 Winchester Magnum at 3150fps taken this last weekend.

Terminal effects are devastating.