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hunting rifle accuracy

I live in Virginia. I have family in Montana.
Trying to get a western big game rifle. For elk, mule deer , black bear pronghorn.
Just started working a load up for this rifle.
Just curious as to what most of you expect a hunting rifle to do. The 800 yard limit is my extreme outer limits.
Honestly 500-600 would be my most consistent outer limits. While hunting.
Even though I live in Virginia. I have a 1000 yard range in my back yard. I will shoot that far but they are heavy rifles that are not production out of the box guns.
They are my "golf clubs".
So I asked this question because maybe my expectations where to high for a out of the box production rifle. Even though it's guaranteed to be sub moa
As for an out of the box hunting rifle so far the only ones I have found to actually be sub MOA have been Tikka's. I followed the manufacturer's recommendation and shot Sako Super Hammerhead 180 gr out of the 30-06 and Sako Super Hammerhead 130 gr out of the 270. The rifles shot 0.7 and 0.5 MOA respectively. Those shots were after the rifles were taken out of the box, cleaned and lubricated and went directly to the range. I have been able to pretty much duplicate the 270 ammo but still have a bit of tinkering to do with the 30-06, which is still sub MOA. Getting it down to 0.5 or less might be a long term project. Currently using Nosler and Sierra bullets, might have to try something different on the 30-06. Any suggestions other than Hammer bullets?
 
I don't mean to "stir the pot here" as the vast majority of you folks perform to a much higher degree than I or my rifle is capable of. I saw this posted on another website, and would like to know you opinion about Brian Litz's opinion!

Do we put a bit too much emphasis upon getting that last 1/4" @ 100 yards, in the real world is it really important……or an exercise in futility? memtb



The following was posted on Facebook by Applied Ballistics Brian Litz

How important is it to have 1/2 MOA precision vs 1 MOA?

Depends on target size...

Weapon Employment Zone (WEZ) analysis shows there's a max of around 10-15% difference in hit % on a 5" circle at 400-600 yards between a 1/2 MOA and a 1 MOA rifle. That's all the bigger the difference is.

For an IPSC silhouette, the most difference you'll see is only 4% at 1000-1400 yards.
 
I think it's all just a guideline, best intentioned guidelines. Which is why I specified " kill zone" shots. One of the benefits is the OP is getting an idea of what to try to achieve. And if the shooter practices a lot at that range under varying wind conditions they'll learn a lot about what is a high percentage shot and what is not.
 
a 6-7 lb gun I'm not taking to 800 yards. Just not happening in that weight range. 600 yards maybe. For that weight I'm looking for a rifle to hold moa over several 3 shot groups. For my longer range rifles I'm looking for multiple 10 shot groups to be sub moa at worst and really like to see it in that .7 range. Note: these rifles will most every time shoot 3 shots sub .5 and lots of groups in the .1-.3 range.

This is done at 100 yards and once it does it there I'll take it out long range. Es needs to be around 25 or less for 10 shots but I don't get super caught up in that as long as my vertical at range is okay.

I'll also mention this is with a barrel with a minimum of 100 rounds on it and I'll clean every 50 rounds or so but usually every trip.
 
Funny how we fixate on different view points of "Hunting Rifle Accuracy". My father in law and ex-marine who fought in the South Pacific in WW II had an interesting take on accurracy of his hunting rifle, an old Savage lever action .243 Winchester. Every year as hunting season would approach his son, me and everyone that would hunt together would all gather for a sight in day. We would mount our targets, adjust zeros, finagle this and that, then my father in law would show up after feeding and checking on his cows. He'd pull out a feed bag, draw a circle on it, nail it to a tree and then proceed to put 5 rounds in the circle. He look at us and say "I'm ready, what has been taken ya'll so long and what have you been doing all morning?". He'd then proceed to go out and never miss a deer at what ever distance he shot one at, always, always thru the heart, one shot, 50 to 200 yards, did not matter. So I guess the moral of my story to myself is accuracy is what you feel comfortable with using your rifle, your abilities and your skills. Man I sure miss him and all his wisdom. Made a real impact on my life and so many others!
 
I've seen 1moa rifles make consistent kills at 6-800yds. And seen them miss at the same range. Ive also seen 1/4" rifles miss at that range too! Lot of reasons for a miss that have nothing to do with the rifle.
But what I do know is that if the shooter thinks he will hit it at 800 then he has a much better chance than if he is unsure. So if said shooter knows his rifle will shoot 1/4" @100 he will be confident in making a hit at 800. The confidence of knowing the rifle will do it I believe to be most important. Of course the shooter must practice as well to overcome all other variables.
To answer your question directly I'm looking for no worse than 1/2moa at 600. 3 shot group from a 9lb mag rifle
 
What would most of you consider acceptable for accuracy in a real world 6-7 pound 8-9 pound magnum hunting rifle? I am talking from a bench with rest, bipod, sand bags what have you but as steady as you can get it. What would you want your rifle to do to hunt western big game. out to 800 yards or so.
In addition to 3/4" groups, long distance accuracy requires a great deal of practice to confidently make the shot.
 
Anyone referencing 5 shot groups is not talking about hunting. If you have to take 5 or the animal allows you 5 (you shouldn't eat it or it was a pet), you probably are not or should not be hunting.
I don't think anyone is talking about taking 5 shots on an animal.

But to achieve a sense and confidence in your rifle/ammo's capability in YOUR hands, there is no other way than to go to the "square range (mine is <100m - 1300m)" and shoot "x" number shots/groups. Paying special attention to the cold bore shot. There must be an acceptable standard (define your own) between rifle, ammunition and shooter; failing such, the shooter/hunter will have little confidence in success.

Of course taking one's range "game" into the back country is a whole different matter.

Good practice is to call your shot when the trigger breaks. Note impact. Then analyze with your spotter what caused the variation between the "call" and actual impact.

Military long range marksmen (read, SEAL/USMC/Army snipers and AMU members) train all the time to gain/maintain confidence in their skillset, rifle and ammo. And these guys hunt THE most dangerous game on the planet.

I'm always amazed at how eager guys are to drop serious coin on a rifle and optics, but moan when it comes to investing coin in training. Training is an investment, albeit an intangible asset.
 
1/2 moa for 8+ lb gun
3/4 for 7.5 lb
1" 7 lb
1.25" for under 7 lb

These weights are for a rifle, scope , sling, and fully loaded magazine or clip.
 
Under 1" moa carried out to 800yds puts you in the kill zone of all North American big game even whitetails and antelope. Agree with all, Less moa is much better. Anyone referencing 5 shot groups is not talking about hunting. If you have to take 5 or the animal allows you 5 (you shouldn't eat it or it was a pet), you probably are not or should not be hunting.
Yep, that's why I responded as such in #12.
 
A lot of the discussion is interesting, but may not be helpful. I would recommend the questioner listen to the recent Hornady podcasts regarding actual, statistically proven, rifle accuracy, versus the accuracy we riflemen claim we have out of our rifles (episodes 50 and 52). The ultimate reloader podcast with Bryan Litz is similar, but less detailed. Getting a 0.5MOA best group in ideal conditions off the bench is possible when the precision of the rifle in fact is in fact significantly greater than that. But is that really the issue? And are you a shooter or a hunter? There are many folks who practice frequently, know their rifle, and are capable of very precise shooting at long distances. If they are hunting, they are also most likely carting around a lot of equipment, including an accurate Kestrel to aid their shooting capabilities.
A much more important question, assuming you have a rifle that is actually capable of shooting true MOA or better groups, is are you capable of shooting those types of groups in actual field conditions at the distance you have listed? I would say, and this is no afront to you, is that you will not be capable of reliably hitting an 8inch target at 800 yds in field conditions. Unless you have access to a shooting range for long distance shooting, will be practicing regularly, and expend hundreds of rounds practicing prone, sitting, shooting off trees, shooting on irregular ground, and regularly shooting in 15-20 mile an hour wind, you are not going to be able to consistently hit an animal, even a large animal like an elk at 800 yards. You can go to the Barbour Shooting School for a few days, shoot in an enclosed room, use a suppressed, smaller caliber rifle, get good instruction, shoot comfortably sitting off of a bench and hit a steel target at 800 yds. That is not western hunting. That would be like saying because I can comfortably drive a nice stable car down the interstate at 100 miles an hour in the open west, therefore I am ready for a Nascar slot.
Are you going to be able to hit an elk at 800 yds when you are lying on rocks in the snow, the wind, as it usually is, blowing 15 MPH or higher, and gusting, your hands are cold, there is a canyon between you and the elk? Do you know how much elapsed time it takes for the bullet to traverse the distance between you and your prey?
I live and ranch in New Mexico, and have shot lots of elk in my lifetime (70 years), here and other areas in the west. My children hunt, and between us we have lots of elk harvested. I have also guided elk hunters. I can't think of an elk we (family) have had to shoot over 300 yards. Could we have attempted shots greater than that distance? Yes. Did we need to shoot farther than that? No. I realize, that at times the hunt is winding down, you have a chance at a long shot, and it is either now or never. For most hunters, the answer should probably be never. I reload out of my garage, walk out to a bench 30 yards from my house, and can practice on targets, reload, and shoot some more. Or walk another 200 yards and begin shooting out to 600 yards or more. I love accurate and precise rifles, but extreme input rifles are not usually what makes for a succesful hunt. A few years ago my brother and I were hunting and got elk with him shooting a pre-64 Winchester lever action 308, and me a pre-64 bolt action Winchester 308 (built in 1953, 1 year after my birth). The shots were not from long range, but not in an easy situation to shoot from, and accomplished because we had acceptable hunting rifles, good hunting skills, and were capable of shooting in actual hunting conditions.
This has been too long, but I hope you can find a decent rifle, get familiar with it, and get an opportunity to come out west to hunt. There is not much more exciting than elk hunting. But I believe you would be a lot more productive if you would spend your time practicing shooting with a rifle you really know, and forget about trying to shoot at what is for most people an unrealistic, or even an unlikely distance. Good luck!
 
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