Rflshootr
Well-Known Member
So, .001 or .002 headspace enough or should it be a bit more?
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Rifle Accuracy
- Thread starter hunter66
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Adjust your sizing down very slowly, maybe 1/16 turn at a time. You will feel the bolt Closing get easier.
People seem to be fascinated with pushing the headspace back .002, but reducing the dia at the Web is of major concern where the case has expanded to the point where the bolt is hard to close. Often, with production dies in production chambers, you have to push the shoulder back more than you like to get the web dimension down to where the bolt will close easily. There is MUCH confusion in this area of the Web dimension, and a function of that dimension is what the brass starts out at! Brands can differ greatly in how large or small they are in the web with Winchester brass having the smallest dimension in many cases with Lapua/Norma and RWS having the largest dimensions in the web.
Reloading and shooters' knowledge is getting advanced enough to where die makers may start making two sets of dies, one to reduce the headspace length to the shoulder, and another set to reduce the dia at the web which are called "ring dies".
Reloaders need a Micrometer that measures to the .0001 to measure the dia at the web, NOT calipers.
I use oversized Ogive gauges to measure the headspace length as I am setting up a die. I have to determine whether it is the Web dimension or the headspace length that is causing the bolt to not close easily, and 90% of the time, it is the dimension at the Web, but there are NO fixed rules in this issue.
Not many know that Forster's standard neck sizing dies WILL bump shoulders. In some cases with tough brass, all you have to do is bump the shoulder back, which is true of my Rem 700 in 25/06 with Winchester brass shooting very hot loads.
If you think like a machinist, you will write down the fire-formed headspace length of the case in your loading book, along with the Maximum Web dimension of the case where you start to get increased bolt lift, and life will get much easier. You can get creative with documenting the dimensions.
Production dies will vary in the web dimensions and shoulder dimensions, and often you have to do a little trial and error with various brands of dies, especially when dealing with Web dimensions.
I have found that in general, Redding body dies will size a tad but tighter, but again, it is trial and error.
People seem to be fascinated with pushing the headspace back .002, but reducing the dia at the Web is of major concern where the case has expanded to the point where the bolt is hard to close. Often, with production dies in production chambers, you have to push the shoulder back more than you like to get the web dimension down to where the bolt will close easily. There is MUCH confusion in this area of the Web dimension, and a function of that dimension is what the brass starts out at! Brands can differ greatly in how large or small they are in the web with Winchester brass having the smallest dimension in many cases with Lapua/Norma and RWS having the largest dimensions in the web.
Reloading and shooters' knowledge is getting advanced enough to where die makers may start making two sets of dies, one to reduce the headspace length to the shoulder, and another set to reduce the dia at the web which are called "ring dies".
Reloaders need a Micrometer that measures to the .0001 to measure the dia at the web, NOT calipers.
I use oversized Ogive gauges to measure the headspace length as I am setting up a die. I have to determine whether it is the Web dimension or the headspace length that is causing the bolt to not close easily, and 90% of the time, it is the dimension at the Web, but there are NO fixed rules in this issue.
Not many know that Forster's standard neck sizing dies WILL bump shoulders. In some cases with tough brass, all you have to do is bump the shoulder back, which is true of my Rem 700 in 25/06 with Winchester brass shooting very hot loads.
If you think like a machinist, you will write down the fire-formed headspace length of the case in your loading book, along with the Maximum Web dimension of the case where you start to get increased bolt lift, and life will get much easier. You can get creative with documenting the dimensions.
Production dies will vary in the web dimensions and shoulder dimensions, and often you have to do a little trial and error with various brands of dies, especially when dealing with Web dimensions.
I have found that in general, Redding body dies will size a tad but tighter, but again, it is trial and error.
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A friend of mine bought one of these is a different caliber, and just like yours, it would not shoot a decent group and had rather rough rifling. I suggested he use a Tubbs fire polishing kit, and after he used the kit, it began to shoot considerably better groups.
Plenty. I shoot for .0015 and accept .001 to .002.
I run that 85 grain Sierra .020 off the lands on 42 grains of IMR 4350. It's a great bullet for varmints and deer. Here it is at 200 yards. 5 shots.
You may want to try some R#19 with a Fed 215 Primer with the 85. I am at 44.5g at 3400 fps in my worn 26" 243 with a 9 1/4" twist, and please work up to that load. I shoot the same load with the 85g Barnes TSX for some amazing deer kills, jumping the bullet .050 from the lands.
R#19, throat dimensions vary, so work up to the load that I shoot in Win brass only which has the largest case capacity of the brands I have tested.
The 85g Speer bt is a very accurate bullet with this load, and the 85g Speer btsp is a deer bullet, NOT a varmint bullet with a very good BC. I mention this because the 85g Sierra bthp is almost impossible to find, like many sierra bullets. The 85g Sierra flat base is available now which is tougher than the Sierra BTHP.
R#19, throat dimensions vary, so work up to the load that I shoot in Win brass only which has the largest case capacity of the brands I have tested.
The 85g Speer bt is a very accurate bullet with this load, and the 85g Speer btsp is a deer bullet, NOT a varmint bullet with a very good BC. I mention this because the 85g Sierra bthp is almost impossible to find, like many sierra bullets. The 85g Sierra flat base is available now which is tougher than the Sierra BTHP.
Howdy, the barrels on these guns are roughly finished. They need laped and shot and cleaned, a little more rigorous than normal barrel brake in. Also check to see if its crowned.
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
hunter66
Well-Known Member
He is 11 and doesn't have a long enough reach for any of my rifles that's why I bought the Youth rifle. Got some snap caps for him to practice with. Thanks for your thoughts.
hunter66
Well-Known Member
ThanksHowdy, the barrels on these guns are roughly finished. They need laped and shot and cleaned, a little more rigorous than normal barrel brake in. Also check to see if its crowned.
Hope this helps.
Turkeytider
Well-Known Member
Hunter, just curious. The gun shoots 2.5" groups ( Precision ). How`s the POI vs. POA? ( Accuracy )? It`s possible to have good precision but poor accuracy and vice versa. With a hunting rifle, I always pay the most attention to where the first cold bore shot strikes ( POI vs. POA ), especially out of a clean bore. That`s the " money shot " in the field.
waveslayer
Well-Known Member
Why not throw on there a new barrel and start anew.. that is most likely the issues, I know I am jumping in here late to the game
JustMe2
Well-Known Member
Here's a link discussing the many problems with this rifle. I'd sell it and buy your son a real firearm to learn shooting skills. Stop being cheap. LOL
Those handi rifles are a crap shoot. You can spend a lot of time and money and it still may not shoot. There are plenty of cheap bolt guns made for kids that shoot great. Buddy just bought a ruger american compact for his grandkid. Sub moa with factory ammo. Shoots lights out with reloads.
I have this gun also. My gun is same and will not shoot deer rounds in 90 and 100 grs better than 2" most 2.5 and I could see some signs of stability issues. However, I floated the forend and bedded around hanger screw and receiver, it now shoots about 1" with most lighter loads like 80gr Barnes for deer and anything in 70grs and lighter is bug hole. I was told my barrel was 10 twist, but when I check it with rod and tape method its really a 11.25 twist, that's why it doesn't shoot the heavies well. Check your actual twist rate. You may have to shoot lighter bullets.
