Good eye and good thinking outside the box.
How to blowup your rifle
- Thread starter Winkfish
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Good eye and good thinking outside the box.
I have switched lots of Varget . ADI 2208 and destroyed cases , way too much variation from one lot to the next, Palma shooters know this ! I hate ADI powders because of this they have PP QC in Ozzy. Some one raised the issue of using Lapua or Norma Brass and it not fitting in the chamber that is correct ! European brass falls under legal mandated compliance standards ''CIP". In the US we have SAAMI standards which are voluntary and you will note that US Brass is typically smaller in size. So as gunsmith the first question I ask is what brass are you going to use and the I know which reamer to do the chambering with . Sorry to say but the European brass is no better and at time worse than US mfg brass, paying more for heavier brass that is sometimes softer is no bargain.
I have a lot of experience shooting in cold weather down to minus 30, (I'm from Manitoba too) but usually-20. I've never seen any of the problems put forward on this thread relating to moisture, although I would hesitate to discount completely. When hunting I routinely tape the muzzle to keep snow or mud out, in case of tripping. I shoot through the tape.
But to the issue, by the shape of the case, and the taper produced, it seems less likely it was an annealing problem. It also looks unlikely it was an (ordinary) overpressure load that could happen with a few grains. I've had that happen, more than once I'm sorry to say, and the unbelted .243 case looked to have a belt on it. The case pictured seems to have expanded evenly from shoulder to base. Looks like pressures well beyond even factory proof loads. This really looks like a detonation.
I'm pretty confident the loading practice described was good enough to avoid loading a bad round, so if you accept that, there are only a couple of things I can think of.
One is a bad primer from the factory. I've never had a problem with Federal 215's even with compressed charges of H870 in a .300 Weatherby in temperature down to minus 35 which is what it was when I shot my first elk. But I think it could happen with any manufacturer.
The second is a bad primer again, but caused by the user. I loaded for a number of years and was occasionally plagued with dud rounds. Finally I read or was told that some people can not directly touch a primer as their skin can give off oils that can kill or ****** a primer. That was me, I guess, as I never had another failure in a rifle after I quit handling them. I'm guessing that they might be damaged in the seating process or a high primer might not ignite properly either.
I've had an experience or two that I could attribute to high primers in pistols when I failed to notice a change in my press over time. These can cause squibs, and that could well lead to a detonation in a big case.
The only other thing is an underloaded case which has historically been a cause of catastrophic failures with slow burning powders, but I've already said I'm confident that was not the cause, as the loading procedures followed seem to have been excellent.
In any event I'll be following this thread. I am comfortable with my assessment but am interested to see what else comes up.
McDoone
But to the issue, by the shape of the case, and the taper produced, it seems less likely it was an annealing problem. It also looks unlikely it was an (ordinary) overpressure load that could happen with a few grains. I've had that happen, more than once I'm sorry to say, and the unbelted .243 case looked to have a belt on it. The case pictured seems to have expanded evenly from shoulder to base. Looks like pressures well beyond even factory proof loads. This really looks like a detonation.
I'm pretty confident the loading practice described was good enough to avoid loading a bad round, so if you accept that, there are only a couple of things I can think of.
One is a bad primer from the factory. I've never had a problem with Federal 215's even with compressed charges of H870 in a .300 Weatherby in temperature down to minus 35 which is what it was when I shot my first elk. But I think it could happen with any manufacturer.
The second is a bad primer again, but caused by the user. I loaded for a number of years and was occasionally plagued with dud rounds. Finally I read or was told that some people can not directly touch a primer as their skin can give off oils that can kill or ****** a primer. That was me, I guess, as I never had another failure in a rifle after I quit handling them. I'm guessing that they might be damaged in the seating process or a high primer might not ignite properly either.
I've had an experience or two that I could attribute to high primers in pistols when I failed to notice a change in my press over time. These can cause squibs, and that could well lead to a detonation in a big case.
The only other thing is an underloaded case which has historically been a cause of catastrophic failures with slow burning powders, but I've already said I'm confident that was not the cause, as the loading procedures followed seem to have been excellent.
In any event I'll be following this thread. I am comfortable with my assessment but am interested to see what else comes up.
McDoone
WildRose
Well-Known Member
My point is, reading through his loading process about the only way he could have overcharged the round was to attempt to double load it. In doing so it would be immediately obvious to him he'd done so.
If by some miracle he didn't notice the powder all over the table as soon as he attempted to seat a bullet he would have had yet another indicator and as soon as he attempted to press it in yet another.
Unless one is loading under the influence of something pretty powerful it would be extremely difficult for such a series of errors to occur.
NOTE: they make Magnum primers for a VERY good reason. Double base powders esp ball powders are hard to get burning and when using 'most' standard primers in magnum size cases quite often will end up with big velocity variations , even at 70F. Part of the CIP proof testing for non standard rounds is to heat the cartridge up to a high temperature then shoot it.
wildcat westerner
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In trying to provide some real input here, it must have taken incredible pressures to drive a bullet that heavy to 3,100 + fps. Therefore, I do believe the wrong powder got used. With retumbo being so slow, could you even run into a pressure situation with this huge case, and admittedly that very heavy bullet?
I was raised in Minnesota and am reading these temperatures you are shooting in with a mild degree of discomfort. Are you using a heat source that may have allowed the ammo to be placed too near it, which may have some effect on this bad situation?
Gene S.
I was raised in Minnesota and am reading these temperatures you are shooting in with a mild degree of discomfort. Are you using a heat source that may have allowed the ammo to be placed too near it, which may have some effect on this bad situation?
Gene S.
Scooterbum
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The reloading bench maneuvers r still suspect. However, let's see 1st what bng turns up on hard parts exam.
Richard Davis
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You were very lucky that the bolt stuck and it did dot explode in your face.
My rifle of choice to hunt with is a Model 700 375 RUM I had built for me by Remington in their custom shop. I do not think the temperature had anything to do with your problem I hunt Caribou in the winter hunt and it is always -10 to-40F .So hot gas and lead through a cold barrel is likely not the problem. I only use factory loads from Remington. Which I understand Remington has stopped production on the 375 RUM I went to my local gun shop and bought the last 5 boxes of 300 Grain they had. This will last me as long as I hunt.
I do not like to reload Magnum rounds because of the pressure.
At least your bolt stuck when it was closed.
My rifle of choice to hunt with is a Model 700 375 RUM I had built for me by Remington in their custom shop. I do not think the temperature had anything to do with your problem I hunt Caribou in the winter hunt and it is always -10 to-40F .So hot gas and lead through a cold barrel is likely not the problem. I only use factory loads from Remington. Which I understand Remington has stopped production on the 375 RUM I went to my local gun shop and bought the last 5 boxes of 300 Grain they had. This will last me as long as I hunt.
I do not like to reload Magnum rounds because of the pressure.
At least your bolt stuck when it was closed.
Riflehunter1776
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Federal primers are fairly hot compared to others like CCI.
Again, not suggesting anything just thinking out loud, but back around 2015/2016 Federal gold match was nearly impossible to find and the factory had to rush to crank out enough product to make up for the shortfall. A similar thing happened with AR parts back after the post-Sandy Hook panic and many AR components made during that time showed very poor quality control.
Again, not suggesting anything just thinking out loud, but back around 2015/2016 Federal gold match was nearly impossible to find and the factory had to rush to crank out enough product to make up for the shortfall. A similar thing happened with AR parts back after the post-Sandy Hook panic and many AR components made during that time showed very poor quality control.
Riflehunter1776
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now this is interesting: pressure tests in hot and cold weather
https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/Pressure Factors.pdf
https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/Pressure Factors.pdf
No advice but sure glad you didn't get hurt your wellbeing is the most important thing god bless
RogerPA
Well-Known Member
Winkfish,
First, thank God the catastrophic failure you experienced didn't lead to any personal injuries! At the same time, also thank God for an understanding wife who's suggesting you get a new rifle...
I'm the guy who posted my own observation/question, (regarding high pressure indications in low temps) that Barrelnut mentioned in post #3 of your thread. I'm now totally convinced there's something to it, other than human error that is.... While my experience was not catastrophic, the conditions were very similar to yours. In my situation the barrel was squeaky clean, and I was shooting the exact batch of brass/primers/powder/bullets used last fall in 50 degree temps to generate under 1/2" MOA groups with absolutely no pressure indications. The temp was 4 degrees (12/27/17) when I decided to test the velocity of the rounds that in the fall average 3190fps. Round 1 on this day shot up to 3340, and the bolt lifted hard. I was surprised, but went ahead and fired two more rounds. Number 2 was 3327fps, and number 3 was 3330fps, with similarly hard bolt lifts and ejector marks on the headstamp. As I stated in the earlier post, I was shooting a modest load in a Christensen Arms 26 Nosler, 72.0 grains of Retumbo, Federal 215 primer, and Berger 130 gr. VLD hunting bullets. (And I did pull several remaining loads to confirm exact load weight, bullet weight, and powder.). I'm 100% certain the only verifiable that existed in my test was the outside temperature. I'm very interested in the observations, suggestions, and experiences of others, and thank you very much for sharing your story. I know one thing for sure....When I feel like doing some shooting in single digit temps (or lower), I'll shoot my bow or .22LR.
Up front I'll admit to not reading this entire thread. What comes to my mind is condensation forming with a warm barrel and a very cold ambient air temperature. I live in a well insulated house. When the temperature outside gets down around 0 and below, condensation forms on the windows. If I bring a rifle inside from being out in those 0 and and below temps it gets very wet in a hurry. If water formed inside the barrel out in the extreme cold, I would think that it could create an over pressure situation.
