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How much throat erosion is “normal”

Rifle shooter, we were in target-rich environments, ground squirrels, p. dogs, and jackrabbits. Barrels were considered expendable, and we did not give a tinkers darn about shooting the throat out of a barrel. As a general rule, we had the barrels set back in the realm of 1800 rounds, and at that point, the leade was not shot out, but getting on the long side where the bullet was not in the neck enough to give consistent grip and ignition characteristics.

Our old German gunsmith, Joe Wagner taught us how to measure not only throat length but throat dia. As the barrel is fired, the leade grows in length and dia. This growth drops velocity, so as a barrel is fired with the growth, chamber pressure drops and accuracy decreases. There is a "window" where accuracy slowly decreases to a point where you are not shooting 3/8" groups anymore, which was our goal. On the barrel set back, the bore dia can be larger, and the gunsmith has to have a reamer pilot of that dia so the reamer is not rattling around in the chamber creating an egg-shaped chamber. The key on a barrel setback is to get the new throat dia the same as the dia at the muzzle. High-quality barrels usually have uniform barrel dia to 0.0001, and this should be checked on every new barrel blank with the bore dia stamped on the outside of the barrel. A tight barrel will peak pressure sooner and a loose barrel will be able to see some pretty high velocities. IN 6mm you also buy barrels in .236 or .237 bore dia. I prefer a .236 for short-range bench rest and a .237 for all varmint rifles and long-range rifles. Shooters are getting a LOT more informed on the details of chamber dimensions, and throat geometry including freebore dia and length, and Web dia.

On a final note, after you have tuned your load on your new barrel or gun, if you chronograph that load, you have learned the frequency where that particular barrel likes to resonate. So, as the throat grows in dimension both width and length, you loose velocity and at some point, the barrel is not resonating the same or is at a different "node".

So you have several options and it is best to use both. First, maintain that distance from the lands that the bullet liked when it was new. Second, maintain the velocity that the barrel was shooting at when you first tuned the load. This is just dumb butt simple...works every time.

My brother uses a different approach that he can afford. He seats the bullet just about on top of the powder. He works up a load that shoots a bug hole at this seating depth which is usually pretty deep. As the leade grows, he does not adjust the seating depth much. When the accuracy is gone, he discards the barrel or rifle. This method keeps his gunsmith very happy. My brother has no patience for my method...none. I Watched him tune a Rem long range 700 factory in 25/06 shooting the 115g Bergers at 2" groups at 500 yards, same thing with a Rem 700 Varmint in 308 shooting the 155g Berger VLD hunting. Brother has the money to just replace barrels as needed, and I am forced to get the most out of what I have.

My approach and brothers achieve the same results, he just goes through barrels more than I do. I like chasing the accuracy and details there in, brother has no patience to do this kind of thing. He really liked the concept of increasing the powder charge as the leade dia and length grew...he would do that because it was easy/quick.
 
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I don't want to start an argument, but are you saying there was no change in the throat after the first 50 or less rounds of break in for the additional 220 plus or minus rounds that he has fired?
basically, very little as long as there is no abuse involved. you can take bore paste and polish and remove burrs before any measurements are taken and then measure again after a couple hundred rounds and see very little change. remember this is a factory barrel and savages even know they shoot good they are what they are.
 
Here is an interesting article that might shed a little light. My results are similar, but not quite to the extreme of what the article states. This is from real proven data and not just an opinion or a wag.
Vince, btw, everything you have said is absolutely feasible.

 
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I shot out a lot of 243 barrels on Chucks, p. dogs, jack rabbits, and Coyotes. My primary load in custom and Rem 700 barrels was 39g+of IMR 4064 with an 80g Sierra single shot pistol bullet(no longer made). Just at the point where you see the very mildest pressure with this load, is where the best accuracy is. The velocity ran 3400 fps on custom 12t, zero freebore, 26" barrels. This

IMR 4064 and Varget are rough on barrels, and so is R#15, 4895s, and 8208. I measured the OAL to the lands every 100 rounds. When loading up several hundred, I would always seat the bullets .100 long, then adjust the seating depth to what the barrel liked.

Almost without exception, the best accuracy is where the bullet was just .003 or so off the lands, and I am talking about 3/8" accuracy and MUCH less.

If your climate permits, AA2700 is the coolest burning powder to use, it is accurate and fast, with Win 760 being a great second choice with cci 250s taking the SD down below 10 fps.

In my custom 243's, the 60g Sierra HP, 70g Ballistic tip, and the 80g Sierra are instant Killers with amazing accuracy. We also had fantastic accuracy with the 65-75g Benchest bullets I made off of J4 jackets working excellent on p. dogs, chucks, and coyotes.

As your throat keeps getting longer, you keep seating your bullets out, then go to a bullet with more bearing surface to maintain accuracy, and look no further than a 100g Hornady btsp, 100g Speer btsp, 90g Speer, 95g SST, and Hornady 87g V max. Sierra .243 bullets are rare and since they are not available, I did not mention any of them. Nosler bullets are also not available.

R#26 with cci 250 primer will push the 100's at 3200 fps in the 243 unless you are running a short barrel.

ON all my custom barrels, I start off with zero freebore for varmint rifles, and this has worked fabulously on all bullets 80g and less.

AA2700 and Win 760 are fantastic powders for the 243 unless you are hunting in super cold weather.

On our p. dog hunts, I carried a 5-gallon bucket full of neck-turned 243 and 243 AI. I saw .070-.110 leade growth per bucket fired, depending on how hot and heavy the shooting was. We shot Max Heavy Varmint contour barrels that started off with 5" of straight on 12 twist barrels. The AA2700 and 760 was gentle enough on the barrels to where we could set the barrel back twice as 243 or AI, then the third chamber became a 6 BR at around 24". We did not let the leade get completely shot out before we set the barrel back, and by doing this, we got 10,000 rounds on Hart SS barrels. Kriegers may last longer, don't know. My hunting partner and I ordered Hart barrels ten at a time, as we were shooting 20,000 rounds a year and some years more.
Thanks for the info, that's kinda what I was curious about, as far as powder choice and the amount of erosion being in the usual range or over. Since it has a 26" tube on it, figured it may benefit a little by running a slower powder for a little more velocity, and was thinking maybe the slower powder wouldn't have as much of a throat torching effect. I do have some win 760 that I was going to try with them, and play with the seating depth a little. Wanted to try the 760 for the 70 grain and I have some 87 vld hunters and 87 vmax I was thinking of using H4350 with
 
How fast do you fire rounds? If it still shoots well, I wouldn't worry about it.

Have a 243 AI. Just hit 700 rounds. Never checked CBTO since breaking. Equal amounts of H4350, Staball 6.5, and H4831. Was looking at the chamber for carbon ring when cleaning. Yikes, alot of fire cracking in the throat are. Still shoots the same .5 MOA consistently.

All this is to say, don't worry about these things unless they affect performance. It's good to know and build a baseline of knowledge for the future. Perhaps better knowledge of this progression would come from monitoring every 100 rounds.
Very slowly, when testing hand loads, I wait at least a full minute between shots, a little more for the last 2 of the 5.
 
Hey all, haven't been on the forum in a while, so I thought of a good question to get feedback on. I have a Savage M12 LRP in 243 win. It has about 270 rounds through the barrel, so I decided to get the oal gauge out and remeasure to see where it was at. Of those 270 rounds, 200 were 70gr blitz kings over 41 gr of 4064, and a box of factory ammo for barrel break in when it was new, and a few test loads. I found that I'd now have to seat them out about .015 further to reach the lands now. I know the 243 is well known for being rough on barrels, but is this within "normal" wear, or is that excessive for 270 rounds? It's not a real concern, it's a savage, so I can rebarrel it on the living room floor when I shoot it out, but I'm just curious
Since it's not a real concern, I'd look for the powder that gives the best accuracy and let the throat wear fall where it may. Don't discount IMR3031, especially for the 87 grainers.
 
Very slowly, when testing hand loads, I wait at least a full minute between shots, a little more for the last 2 of the 5.
This is not a good idea due to how wind conditions change. You want to shoot the same condition. So, prudent to shoot three, then cool. You can cool very quickly with 50/50 rubbing alcohol and water on a wash rag, with the liquid dripping off the bottom of the barrel. Oil your blued barrels when you get home. This simple trick sucks the heat out of barrels like no one would ever believe.

Shooters are very slow to put up a wind flag. If you keep it simple as the wind can blow to the left or right, pick the predominant condition for that day, and your groups will be cut in half at least. You will be able to easily predict the wind direction and bullet placement in short order. This is a real money/time saver.
 
"You made me" measure the throat on my 243AI. I ran approximately 100 AMAXs through my barrel for break in/fire forming. After that, a Berger 105 HVLD measured 2.242" CBTO touching the lands. almost 600 rounds later on a freshly cleaned barrel, 5 different Berger's of the same lot are between 2.245- 2.246". Again, I shoot extremely slow most of the time and I suspect Can1010 is right. There is a good possibility that if measured before firing or after only a few rounds, a burr or other irregularity may partially explain such a rapid perceived erosion of the throat. "They say" that the AI chamber brings the flame "intersection" back into the neck of the case. I don't know. But further monitoring of throat erosion will give a better story. Also, my barrel is stainless. Uncertain if that makes much difference.
 
TinyTim, you have something special with such a small amount of leade growth. I would be very interested to know your load in a PM! Thank You!

I have shot the barrels out of a dozen 243 AI's at least, p. dogs, chucks, jack rabbits, 12T, zero freebore, 70g at 3850 on formed cases with Win 760. We converted over to AA2700, and cci 250 gets the SD down to 9 fps.

I urge you to get a bore scope, you would see any burr as the bore scope magnifies 25x. It would be crappy machine techniques or a dull reamer that left a burr in the throat, and I have looked at many. Anything is possible. HEAVY reamer chatter could cause an irregular reading as the chatter got smoothed by firing.

I measure the CBTO with a bullet when the barrel is brand new. I put that bullet in a tiny plastic bag in the die box, and use that bullet throughout the life of the barrel to measure leade growth.

Also, when the gunsmith is chambering your barrel, he has to cut 1" off the front, and some also cut 1" off the back. I have my gunsmith run the reamer in to the depth of the shoulder body junction. This is called a neck Checker. This simple barrel stub can now be used to insert a case into and measure the headspace length of fired and sized cases. Also, when the barrel is brand new, this Neck Checker can be used to establish the CBTO length because the barrel stubb has the leade angle cut into the lands, a duplicate of what is in the rifle chamber.

I am a firm believer in the interference point created by the AI 40* chamber.
 
check for bullet touch at the beginning of load development and then put your tool it in the cabinet and forget about it. don't adjust anything until accuracy goes away and then there is only one way to go longer.
if accuracy suffers add .003 and test and continue adding and testing until it returns.
what you're seeing with measuring at 270 rounds is the slight change in throat angle and not throat erosion.
just like bore scopes, measuring all the time and having too much info is more of a problem than anything else. accuracy will let you know when to make changes
I came very close to allotting some of my "gun stuff" budget to a borescope and a concentricity gauge. Reading things like this convinced me that sometimes ignorance is bliss and to leave well enough alone if what you're doing is working for you. Bought more brass and powder instead 😁😁😁😁😁😁
 
I came very close to allotting some of my "gun stuff" budget to a borescope and a concentricity gauge. Reading things like this convinced me that sometimes ignorance is bliss and to leave well enough alone if what you're doing is working for you. Bought more brass and powder instead 😁😁😁😁😁😁
you can definitely scope and measure yourself into insanity.
 
Hey all, haven't been on the forum in a while, so I thought of a good question to get feedback on. I have a Savage M12 LRP in 243 win. It has about 270 rounds through the barrel, so I decided to get the oal gauge out and remeasure to see where it was at. Of those 270 rounds, 200 were 70gr blitz kings over 41 gr of 4064, and a box of factory ammo for barrel break in when it was new, and a few test loads. I found that I'd now have to seat them out about .015 further to reach the lands now. I know the 243 is well known for being rough on barrels, but is this within "normal" wear, or is that excessive for 270 rounds? It's not a real concern, it's a savage, so I can rebarrel it on the living room floor when I shoot it out, but I'm just curious
Just my biased, unprofessional opinion: While your measurement is getting close to the maximum it is still okay. (Again, JMO)
If you aren't getting fliers or sideways impacts, if it still shoots great - SHOOT IT!
 
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