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How much throat erosion is “normal”

Establish the relationship that a particular bullet likes to be away from the lands when the barrel is newish, then maintain that relationship for as long as you have enough bullet in the neck. Also, as the leade grows, you bleed off pressure just like a car with worn cylinder rings. The leade grows in length and dia. You add a tad bit more powder to get the velocity up to where it was when the barrel was newish. Simple, the barrel likes to resonate at a certain frequency which in a large part is the velocity of the bullet at the accuracy node you originally found.

Not following this method makes gunsmiths very happy as you simply are replacing barrels more frequently.
 
Much good info in all pages.

The .243 W is very popular for any number of reasons, including competitive use but eats up barrels fast. This is to be expected.

I have had a variety of .243's for many years and think that .243 barrels are sort of like tires in that they can be expected to wear out at an accelerated but predictable rate depending on conditions.

I shoot 87 VMax,105 Hornady HPBT, & 105 Barnes Match Burners. Longest barrel life has been with 105's loaded with single base slow burning powders like H4831 or VN165. I seat bullets further out with wear/use and crimp bullets. I check seating depth with each 50-100 round lot to be loaded. Powder burn rates may vary from lot to lot over time, so I evaluate powder charges with each lot.

My thinking is the gradual sloping .243 Win shoulder contributes to rapid throat erosion vs. the more abrupt shoulder of the .243 AI.

I like to have a barrel-stock gap wide enough for a double thickness of paper towel to easily pass. When the barrel gets hot, I pass a double thickness of wet paper towel thru gap. Evaporation happening in dry conditions, like when shooting rodents, cools the barrel. When thru shooting, I spray Hornady One Shot on a paper towel to clean up and coat barrel in stock.

After 1000 or less rounds, many of my .243W barrels have been replaced with .22-.250 barrels. I have no plans to shoot a bucket full of .243W at rodents on a hot day - I use a .20P for that.
 
Hugnot, AA2700 is much cooler burning than N160 for our application, and that is really saying something! CCI 250 seals the deal on the 2700 for sub 10 fps SD!

After going 22/250 we went 6 BR with H335 and AA2230, barrel life went up to 8000 rounds starting off with a zero freebore chamber with 55-70g bullets at some blistering speeds.
 
Bullets don't erode throats. Have shot out several barrels and 2 things have always been the deciding factor:
Number one is powder type, powder temp and chamber design.
Number two is how fast you shoot.
It is proven that ball powders, although double base, have a colder burn and the flame front moves through the powder faster before the powder column starts being moved past the throat. This protects the throat both from the heat, but also the abrasive nature of the powder.
Extruded powders, regardless of composition, are abrasive, single base burns hotter than double base, but double base has more energy and scrubs the rifling harder. In this scenario it is the abrasive nature that erodes the rifling, not the heat.
I had 2 identical 30" barrels in 300WM I used for mid range F-class. One was fed H1000 only, the other was fed RL25 only. Accuracy fell off the RL25 barrel first after 1400 rounds and a total of .089" throat erosion, a set back had it in new rifling and the accuracy returned. The H1000 barrel lasted 1680 rounds, had .079" throat erosion, but the rifling was smeared for another .100" from I assume was the plug of powder being forced down the barrel. A set back of 2 turns was needed to get into fresh rifling.
So, my take on this is that double base extruded powder is actually nicer on barrels, if I had of set back at .080" erosion, it would have been better in the long run. I get 3 set backs on these barrels.
I was not sponsored, so I had to pay for my barrel blanks, here in Australia a barrel costs over $1000, so not cheap at all.
A reamer only costs a few hundred and is affordable. For my 300WM I use the A191 chamber, you can look this up.

Cheers.
 
I read an article 20+ years ago of a gentlemen with a 22-250 used for prairie dog shooting… He could not see the rifling halfway down the barrel… It was still minute of prairie dog so he kept shooting it…
I have a 6 creed with a pac-nor 7.5 twist barrel (stiller tac 30) that I had set back at 1 k rounds…( I could see the Erosion visually) I have some regrets doing that because I had to go through load development all over again…
Pre setback I was shooting 115 dtacs @ 3025 fps jumping them .120"
I have no idea why it liked them there but it wouldn't shoot them just off the lands…So I did the "Berger .040 , .80, .120 test…it set personal records for me out to 600 yards after that…
I have a course of fire using the 25 yard timed and rapid fire pistol target…
The black portion is 5.5"…
I would shoot 200m,300m,400m, 500 yards, 570 yards…
3 shots each distance… My goal to keep everything in the black…
I would shoot against buddies of mine for score… I added a "Benchrest " bonus of 1 point for best group each distance…
It was a fun and humbling experience…
This course would definitely expose a bad load…
What was also neat is sometimes you may have a bad day calling the wind to get in the black at distance but when you drive up to the target and see 1/2" groups @ 300 meters and sometimes 1" groups at 500 yards you get that warm fuzzy…
Anyway (I got carried away lol) that particular rifle is one of two that I have been able to clean the course with…
Enjoy shooting your rifle… It will tell you when you need to throw money at it lol… I should have listened to mine…
.080-.120 off the lands???? I've heard the vld's sometimes like a little jump to the lands, but wow lol. I've been wanting to play with seating depth more after the nothing special groups my gun shot with the 87 vmax tests. How many test groups did it take to figure that out as far as different depths and powder charges? I've heard a lot of people say that when developing a load for vld's, they find the seating depth first, then powder charge. When you have that drastic of a difference in depth of the test loads, do you add a little extra powder to the ones with the long jump to try to keep the velocity close?
 
Bullets don't erode throats. Have shot out several barrels and 2 things have always been the deciding factor:
Number one is powder type, powder temp and chamber design.
Number two is how fast you shoot.
It is proven that ball powders, although double base, have a colder burn and the flame front moves through the powder faster before the powder column starts being moved past the throat. This protects the throat both from the heat, but also the abrasive nature of the powder.
Extruded powders, regardless of composition, are abrasive, single base burns hotter than double base, but double base has more energy and scrubs the rifling harder. In this scenario it is the abrasive nature that erodes the rifling, not the heat.
I had 2 identical 30" barrels in 300WM I used for mid range F-class. One was fed H1000 only, the other was fed RL25 only. Accuracy fell off the RL25 barrel first after 1400 rounds and a total of .089" throat erosion, a set back had it in new rifling and the accuracy returned. The H1000 barrel lasted 1680 rounds, had .079" throat erosion, but the rifling was smeared for another .100" from I assume was the plug of powder being forced down the barrel. A set back of 2 turns was needed to get into fresh rifling.
So, my take on this is that double base extruded powder is actually nicer on barrels, if I had of set back at .080" erosion, it would have been better in the long run. I get 3 set backs on these barrels.
I was not sponsored, so I had to pay for my barrel blanks, here in Australia a barrel costs over $1000, so not cheap at all.
A reamer only costs a few hundred and is affordable. For my 300WM I use the A191 chamber, you can look this up.

Cheers.
Thanks man, that's great to know. I've seen that single vs double base debate dozens of times, but the guy who's actually sat there and done it trumps all!! I was pretty much set on win760 replacing the 4064 for those bitzkings. It looked promising on the 87 vld's I never finished testing lol. That 4064 will probably find its way into my 223 cases before I get into my new jar of 335 just to see lol
 
Some info that may or may not be useful....maybe a bit controversial, but never the less....


13950809421_e36434eae5.jpg


Read the 3rd post on this link and then scroll down to the picture of the candle and the fire and let that soak in for a minute. Then think about how much fuel is in a 7.62x39 case and how much fuel is in a 300 Win Mag case.....or if you wish, a 6BR vs a 243 Win.

 
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Bullets don't erode throats. Have shot out several barrels and 2 things have always been the deciding factor:
Number one is powder type, powder temp and chamber design.
Number two is how fast you shoot.
It is proven that ball powders, although double base, have a colder burn and the flame front moves through the powder faster before the powder column starts being moved past the throat. This protects the throat both from the heat, but also the abrasive nature of the powder.
Extruded powders, regardless of composition, are abrasive, single base burns hotter than double base, but double base has more energy and scrubs the rifling harder. In this scenario it is the abrasive nature that erodes the rifling, not the heat.
I had 2 identical 30" barrels in 300WM I used for mid range F-class. One was fed H1000 only, the other was fed RL25 only. Accuracy fell off the RL25 barrel first after 1400 rounds and a total of .089" throat erosion, a set back had it in new rifling and the accuracy returned. The H1000 barrel lasted 1680 rounds, had .079" throat erosion, but the rifling was smeared for another .100" from I assume was the plug of powder being forced down the barrel. A set back of 2 turns was needed to get into fresh rifling.
So, my take on this is that double base extruded powder is actually nicer on barrels, if I had of set back at .080" erosion, it would have been better in the long run. I get 3 set backs on these barrels.
I was not sponsored, so I had to pay for my barrel blanks, here in Australia a barrel costs over $1000, so not cheap at all.
A reamer only costs a few hundred and is affordable. For my 300WM I use the A191 chamber, you can look this up.

Cheers.
Great advice. I can't believe how many just don't get the second part of your advice. I once knew of a guy who totally shot-out a .22-250 barrel after only somewhere between 20-50 shots.
 
Some info that may or may not be useful....maybe a bit controversial, but never the less....


13950809421_e36434eae5.jpg


Read the 3rd post on this link and then scroll down to the picture of the candle and the fire and let that soak in for a minute. Then think about how much fuel is in a 7.62x39 case and how much fuel is in a 300 Win Mag case.....or if you wish, a 6BR vs a 243 Win.

These temps are taken in calorimeter bomb tests, the same tests used to determine burn rate by INDIVIDUAL COMPANIES. There is no standard that these tests are put beside, so there is no way to know exactly if this temp is the same in a rifle barrel because cartridge size, design and other factors make it virtually impossible to use this info in your barrel or cartridge. It also doesn't state how much powder is used to get the result.
Peeing into the wind at least has a result you can relate to.

Cheers.
 
Hey all, haven't been on the forum in a while, so I thought of a good question to get feedback on. I have a Savage M12 LRP in 243 win. It has about 270 rounds through the barrel, so I decided to get the oal gauge out and remeasure to see where it was at. Of those 270 rounds, 200 were 70gr blitz kings over 41 gr of 4064, and a box of factory ammo for barrel break in when it was new, and a few test loads. I found that I'd now have to seat them out about .015 further to reach the lands now. I know the 243 is well known for being rough on barrels, but is this within "normal" wear, or is that excessive for 270 rounds? It's not a real concern, it's a savage, so I can rebarrel it on the living room floor when I shoot it out, but I'm just curious
A fair bit depends on what level of accuracy is acceptable. I've burnt the throat out in a 7mm Mag to the point where the rifling was shot for about the first 5 inches- virtually non existent. Sure, the groups had tripled in size but it was still plenty accurate enough for medium size game.
 
Hey all, haven't been on the forum in a while, so I thought of a good question to get feedback on. I have a Savage M12 LRP in 243 win. It has about 270 rounds through the barrel, so I decided to get the oal gauge out and remeasure to see where it was at. Of those 270 rounds, 200 were 70gr blitz kings over 41 gr of 4064, and a box of factory ammo for barrel break in when it was new, and a few test loads. I found that I'd now have to seat them out about .015 further to reach the lands now. I know the 243 is well known for being rough on barrels, but is this within "normal" wear, or is that excessive for 270 rounds? It's not a real concern, it's a savage, so I can rebarrel it on the living room floor when I shoot it out, but I'm just curious
First 1 question ,What is your intended use of this rifle ? If It's a hunting rifle keep shooting it.,f it's a target you might want to rebarrel it in another 400 shots.Good Luck.
 
I can tell you from experience in shooting kegs of AA2700 and AA2520 that it is MUCH easier on throats than IMR 4064, H and IMR 4895, XBR 8208, and R#15.

Most of us that have shot magnums, know how much easier H1000, N165, and N160 are throats vs many of the other popular powders.

N500 series powder is extremely hot and rough on throats. It is my belief that the size of the kernel may have some bearing on throat and barrel wear.
 
I shot out a lot of 243 barrels on Chucks, p. dogs, jack rabbits, and Coyotes. My primary load in custom and Rem 700 barrels was 39g+of IMR 4064 with an 80g Sierra single shot pistol bullet(no longer made). Just at the point where you see the very mildest pressure with this load, is where the best accuracy is. The velocity ran 3400 fps on custom 12t, zero freebore, 26" barrels. This

IMR 4064 and Varget are rough on barrels, and so is R#15, 4895s, and 8208. I measured the OAL to the lands every 100 rounds. When loading up several hundred, I would always seat the bullets .100 long, then adjust the seating depth to what the barrel liked.

Almost without exception, the best accuracy is where the bullet was just .003 or so off the lands, and I am talking about 3/8" accuracy and MUCH less.

If your climate permits, AA2700 is the coolest burning powder to use, it is accurate and fast, with Win 760 being a great second choice with cci 250s taking the SD down below 10 fps.

In my custom 243's, the 60g Sierra HP, 70g Ballistic tip, and the 80g Sierra are instant Killers with amazing accuracy. We also had fantastic accuracy with the 65-75g Benchest bullets I made off of J4 jackets working excellent on p. dogs, chucks, and coyotes.

As your throat keeps getting longer, you keep seating your bullets out, then go to a bullet with more bearing surface to maintain accuracy, and look no further than a 100g Hornady btsp, 100g Speer btsp, 90g Speer, 95g SST, and Hornady 87g V max. Sierra .243 bullets are rare and since they are not available, I did not mention any of them. Nosler bullets are also not available.

R#26 with cci 250 primer will push the 100's at 3200 fps in the 243 unless you are running a short barrel.

ON all my custom barrels, I start off with zero freebore for varmint rifles, and this has worked fabulously on all bullets 80g and less.

AA2700 and Win 760 are fantastic powders for the 243 unless you are hunting in super cold weather.

On our p. dog hunts, I carried a 5-gallon bucket full of neck-turned 243 and 243 AI. I saw .070-.110 leade growth per bucket fired, depending on how hot and heavy the shooting was. We shot Max Heavy Varmint contour barrels that started off with 5" of straight on 12 twist barrels. The AA2700 and 760 was gentle enough on the barrels to where we could set the barrel back twice as 243 or AI, then the third chamber became a 6 BR at around 24". We did not let the leade get completely shot out before we set the barrel back, and by doing this, we got 10,000 rounds on Hart SS barrels. Kriegers may last longer, don't know. My hunting partner and I ordered Hart barrels ten at a time, as we were shooting 20,000 rounds a year and some years more.
I burn W-760 in my 338WM in a 24" barrel. I get 3230fps out of it with Fed 210, 200gr Nosler BTSP. Flat primers, but no creatoring. I haven't tested it in cold weather to see how much it drops off yet. Having a another rifle built in a 26" to see if I can get the velocity to match what have presently with the 760 powder, but with H4350 powder. I prefer single based powders, because of the different types of weather I hunt in.
I just and set up an index on burn rates, and heat rates to reference too for each powder I use.
I realize that Fed primers are softer, but I still stop increasing powder loads below creatoring the primers.
 
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